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Post by tubman13 on Jul 28, 2016 10:42:59 GMT -6
I believe both Culbertson and Ryan expressed it. Also, if I am not mistaken either French or Moylan attempted to get their company to stop and provide covering fire for the escape/breakout/charge/retreat or whatever but was unable to get his troop to comply. I am relatively sure it was Moylan, but it was a long time ago that I read it. If someone else remembers please help me here.
Regards, Tom
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Post by benteen on Jul 28, 2016 13:06:19 GMT -6
I believe both Culbertson and Ryan expressed it. Also, if I am not mistaken either French or Moylan attempted to get their company to stop and provide covering fire for the escape/breakout/charge/retreat or whatever but was unable to get his troop to comply. I am relatively sure it was Moylan, but it was a long time ago that I read it. If someone else remembers please help me here. Regards, Tom Tom, You are correct that an officer tried to get the troops under control. The officer was Lt Varnum, Chief of Scouts. Be Well Dan
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Post by benteen on Jul 28, 2016 13:18:04 GMT -6
I am in full agreement guys but to confirm the point some examples from the battlefild is necessary and I find none. Is there an example anywhere of the men failing to hold their ground ? Does the RCOI contain any evidence from officers suggesting that actions were not carried out because it was feared the men were not up to it? One of the most difficult maneuvers on the battlefield is changing front in the face of the enemy and this the men achieved when taking post in the timber. Best Regards Richard Richard, That would be hard to do. At the Reno fight the men did hold their ground. It was at the Keogh fight where they were routed, and we will never know exactly why, so I dont know how I can give any examples. All I can say is that they didnt hold their ground. Although I believe that Capt Keogh may have caused it do to his inaccurate judgement on the warriors disposition, my own opinion is that it would not have mattered what officers or troops were there, they got hit so fast and hard by so many that they didnt have a chance. Be Well Dan
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Post by wild on Jul 28, 2016 13:41:37 GMT -6
Dan you put it better than I.....my own opinion is that it would not have mattered what officers or troops were there, they got hit so fast and hard by so many that they didnt have a chance.
I have a problem with this Keogh business...it raises it's head every now and again ....Capt Keogh's performance. He served on Bofort's staff and has a good civil war record plus he saw action in the Papal wars being decorated. I think he has been framed so as to fit in with another scenario. His position on Battle Ridge fits more convincingly with yours above. Regards Richard
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 29, 2016 7:25:59 GMT -6
Wild,
I think we agree on Keogh, especially if he was not stationed where he was killed while waiting for Benteen. Let's say he proceeded north with Custer to the Ford D environs, as JSIT seems to indicate. Suppose the officer shot at a ford, was shot at Ford D, and there was a retreat from that whole area. Suppose the Springfield casings found in the north, on BRE linked to C company, actually means C company was there? If C was there why not I&L? This could mean that the command was cut apart while returning south in retreat to seek support and overwhelmed. Interestingly this all fits with Fred's timeline, for distance traveled. Steve nd I went over the timing. You missed an interesting presentation in June. I have always felt more weight should be given JSIT, the presentation adds to this, as do some of Godfrey's ideas on line of travel.
Also, the movement this way makes Custer's plan make more sense and indicates better tactics.
Regards, Tom
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Post by wild on Jul 29, 2016 10:09:21 GMT -6
Hi Tom This could mean that the command was cut apart while returning south in retreat to seek support and overwhelmed. Have to admit Tom that the long layoff has left me somewhat out of touch and your most interesting observation requires more than a snap shot reply. I'm not at home at the moment but back on Monday and will dust down me old maps and notes. I'll just say that the Keogh issue is not done and dusted and is a work in progress. Cheers Richard
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 29, 2016 11:25:38 GMT -6
One has to wonder what the difference was between fighting an opponent like the "western style" Confederates or the European-style battles where you "knew" what the opponent was going to do rather than a guerrilla and/or Indigenous figher who could fight, run, or turn on you and knowing full well that you could not surrender which meant death, not being captured and sent off to a POW camp. If your opponent was a Plains Indian Warrior you knew you could not surrender, you could not say "I give up, take me prisoner", it meant death and sometimes a horrible death.
Keough and Di Rudio were immigrants who fought "by-the-book" and even many of the other officers and non-coms saw very little combat against Indians . . . one must think what they were going through when they realized it was not going to end up like they thought and they could not only get killed but chopped up afterwards. How much did that affect their thought process and reaction when it looked like the warriors were getting the upper hand? Did they panic, did they forget what they were taught in traditional fighting and realizedg "Not only am I going to be killed . . . I'm going to end up mince meat!"
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Post by wild on Jul 29, 2016 12:28:12 GMT -6
When you're wounded and left on Montana's plains, And the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 29, 2016 13:39:35 GMT -6
Did many soldiers commit suicide or did they go out fighting? This is a major question many researchers have asked since the LBH. Is that what West Point taught their students . . . it's better to blow your brains out rather than go down fighting? Did the fear of being chopped up cause the officers/soldiers to give in and/or panic in retreat rather than fighting till the end or putting up enough of a resistance? Did the fear of half-naked, hideously painted, whooping and barking warriors turn the 7th into jelly and caused many to make decisions based more on fear rather than military strategy. Did the fear of being captured, tortured, chopped up cause the 7th to make decisions that ended in the destruction of Custer, the rout of Reno, and the unorganized retreat of the Weir Advance? Did racism, stereotypes and lack of understanding of Native American Culture result in the debacle of the LBH?
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Post by dave on Jul 29, 2016 14:27:42 GMT -6
crzhrs Your comment "Did racism, stereotypes and lack of understanding of Native American Culture result in the debacle of the LBH? " would be valid regarding the American view of the Japanese prior to and during the first year of WW II. Regards Dave
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 29, 2016 14:38:30 GMT -6
Did racism, stereotypes and lack of understanding of Native American Culture result in the debacle of the LBH? Crzhrs, Indirectly yes, the racism was certainly there, the feeling that they were ignorant, ill-equipped to function in society, and that any natural resources which they controlled should be controlled by their betters. Greed was probably a greater part of the debacle. This white arrogance led to our first social welfare program( the reservation system), which was rife with corruption and condescension, much like it is today.
Our feeling of superiority made us underestimate them. The fear really creeps in when you realize, that the underestimation may kill you, and nobody with you has an answer.
Regards, Tom
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Post by wild on Jul 29, 2016 23:48:01 GMT -6
crzhrs Did many soldiers commit suicide or did they go out fighting? This is a major question many researchers have asked since the LBH. Is that what West Point taught their students . . . it's better to blow your brains out rather than go down fighting? Suicide is desertion in another form so no it would not be taught as a drill particularly not to the officer corps. And it would look bad and undermine the confidence of the troops to see their oficers checking out.
Did the fear of half-naked, hideously painted, whooping and barking warriors turn the 7th into jelly and caused many to make decisions based more on fear rather than military strategy. Did the fear of being captured, tortured, chopped up cause the 7th to make decisions that ended in the destruction of Custer, the rout of Reno, and the unorganized retreat of the Weir Advance? I think it was the numbers what done it.When you see you are outnumbered 10 to 1 with the enemy advancing with some determination then it matters not if they have balloons attached to their cojones , feathers protruding from their behinds and as the late lamented would have said singing come by yah ,you know your options are limited. Cheers
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 30, 2016 12:23:25 GMT -6
<When you're wounded and left on Montana's plains, And the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.>
I was responding to Wild's "poem" about soldiers blowing their brains out and asked him the following question:
"Did many soldiers commit suicide or did they go out fighting?" I do not believe suicide is part of US military training then or now. The Japanese had another view of that during WWII . . . but it was not fear of being killed by an enemy but by not being shamed by surrendering.
Wild: Where is the poem from?
And I agree that racism did have a part in interring Japanese-Americans after the onset of WWII. Let's hope we don't start committing those type of ignorant mistakes regarding people of a certain religion today!
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 30, 2016 13:11:39 GMT -6
People of that faith were deported and blocked from entry by the Carter administration, so that kind of stuff has happened since WWII. Not sure his actions were wholly unwarranted.
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Post by wild on Jul 30, 2016 14:59:59 GMT -6
Crzhrs The bold Rudyard is him what wrote it . I changed Afganistan for Montana.
As regards cutting up the wounded ya have to mąkę the price of attacking the wife an kids and your way of life as terrible as possible . You have examples of this down through history.
Attempted suicide should be punishable by death
Cheers
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