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Post by mchlwilson on Jun 29, 2016 11:10:32 GMT -6
Some of the Native American accounts refer to soldiers firing in the air. Their accounts generally interpret this as the soldiers being "drunk" or otherwise acting in ways that make no sense to them. On the other hand, recent historical accounts cite this firing as an example of the breakdown of tactical stability.
I'm wondering if it's possible that what the NAs may have been describing was the soldiers firing volley signal shots on command to attract the attention of other 7th Cavalry elements.
What do you think?
Michael
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Post by benteen on Jun 29, 2016 13:14:55 GMT -6
Some of the Native American accounts refer to soldiers firing in the air. Their accounts generally interpret this as the soldiers being "drunk" or otherwise acting in ways that make no sense to them. On the other hand, recent historical accounts cite this firing as an example of the breakdown of tactical stability.
I'm wondering if it's possible that what the NAs may have been describing was the soldiers firing volley signal shots on command to attract the attention of other 7th Cavalry elements.
What do you think?
Michael
Michael. Just an opinion, but what would be the point of firing in the air, why wouldnt they fire at the enemy, it makes just as much noise to attract the attention of other 7th Cavalry elements. Be Well Dan
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Post by mchlwilson on Jun 29, 2016 13:33:53 GMT -6
Some of the Native American accounts refer to soldiers firing in the air. Their accounts generally interpret this as the soldiers being "drunk" or otherwise acting in ways that make no sense to them. On the other hand, recent historical accounts cite this firing as an example of the breakdown of tactical stability.
I'm wondering if it's possible that what the NAs may have been describing was the soldiers firing volley signal shots on command to attract the attention of other 7th Cavalry elements.
What do you think?
Michael
Michael. Just an opinion, but what would be the point of firing in the air, why wouldnt they fire at the enemy, it makes just as much noise to attract the attention of other 7th Cavalry elements. Be Well Dan Depends how far away the Indians were when they did it. Godfrey and others believed volley firing they heard was a distress signal. I am wondering if the Indians were unknowingly witnessing sims distress signal.
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Post by chardvc on Jun 30, 2016 1:35:14 GMT -6
I always took the "firing in the air" quotes as relating to the commonly observed phenomenon of soldiers firing wildly, possibly over their shoulders, when in retreat. It furthers the hypotheses that tactical command had completely broken down and that the NCOs either couldn't or didn't take charge of the situation.
Firing high is also a common fault among raw troops but the descriptions (from the translations) makes the firing sound more erratic than that.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 30, 2016 6:28:52 GMT -6
I think there is another option. Look at the ballistics of the .45-70 carbine using a .45-55 cartridge and look how far you have to hold over at 800 yards. Get out your carbine and set the sights for that distance and then look how you have to hold it.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 14, 2016 5:51:47 GMT -6
The lack of training and how to use the ramp sight, were they adjusted as the warriors neared. Were soldiers shooting on an upward or downward trajectory at some distance, in either event they would have to aim/hold lower to hit the target where they aimed.
Regards, Tom
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Post by benteen on Jul 14, 2016 12:41:12 GMT -6
The lack of training and how to use the ramp sight, were they adjusted as the warriors neared. Were soldiers shooting on an upward or downward trajectory at some distance, in either event they would have to aim/hold lower to hit the target where they aimed. Regards, Tom Tom, Good point. Also these men were not firing and M1 or M14 where they could keep the same sight picture and squeeze off rounds. After every round they had to take the weapon off their shoulder and reload. Causing them to realign their sight picture when they put the weapon up to fire again. Be Well Dan
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 15, 2016 5:57:15 GMT -6
Every 100 yard difference after 200 yards would require sight adjustment or Kentucky windage. To make hits with the first you had to be good at estimating distance and the target has to remain at that distance. To be good at the second you had to be completely familiar with you weapon and had fired it sufficient to know hold over at various ranges.
I have not read where the Indians remained stationary and in plain view so the adjusting sights probably would not make for a lot of hits. There were a few shooters and they could make hits. The Indians from their hunting experiences probably fit the Kentucky windage category.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by dave on Jul 15, 2016 9:33:59 GMT -6
AZ I am curious as to how soldiers and Marines, modern or 19th century, learned to estimate distance? Having played golf for eons, I have learned to estimate yardages within 10% at distances over 100 yards plus to around about 350 to 400 yards.
I know modern soldiers and Marines spend hours on known distance ranges learning to shoot but is it enough for them to be comfortable estimating distances over 100 yards? What about the 19th century or early 20th century soldiers and Marines, did they have enough practice and experience to estimate yardages? Besides golf what other activity or sport is there to practice estimating ranges?
Looking forwards to your answer as well as others. I have never seen any discussion or article on this subject and would enjoy learning. Thank You Regards Dave
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 15, 2016 9:57:11 GMT -6
What I instruct is that the front sight width is the same as person at 300 yards. If the subject is larger than the front sight your BZO (battle sight zero) is good to go.
Here is some other Marine training:
(1) 100 Yards. At 100 yards/meters, the target can be clearly observed in detail, and facial features can be distinguished.
(2) 200 Yards. At 200 yards/meters, the target can be clearly observed, although there is a loss of facial detail. The color of the skin and equipment is still identifiable.
(3) 300 Yards. At 300 yards/meters, the target has a clear body outline, face color usually remains accurate, but remaining details are blurred.
(4) 400 Yards. At 400 yards/meters, the body outline is clear, but remaining detail is blurred.
(5) 500 Yards. At 500 yards/meters, the body shape begins to taper at the ends. The head becomes indistinct from the shoulders.
(6) 600 Yards. At 600 yards/meters, the body appears wedge-shaped with the appearance of no head.
Regards
Steve
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Post by dave on Jul 15, 2016 10:16:11 GMT -6
AZ Great information! I will steal your ideas to assist my aging golf game!
Do you have any idea how they might have done it back in the days? Regards Dave
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Post by dave on Jul 15, 2016 12:10:46 GMT -6
Pequod As I fail to see your point I suspect I am a little too dense.
Marines, soldiers and law enforcement personnel are professionals who find themselves too often in "harm's way" in the course of their duties and estimating distances is a vital weapon in their arsenals. I know little if anything regarding military arms training but am familiar with that of law enforcement officers in Mississippi. Law officers are required to be able to estimate the approaching speed of a vehicle within a 10% margin of error. We were trained with pistols and shotguns so I have no experience with the training of officers who carried rifles but imagine they followed the training mentioned by AZ.
Man's inhumanity to man has existed since Cain and Abel and yes humans have perfected the art of homicide as well as suicide. God gave us free will and we have certainly wielded it since generally for evil purposes. Regards Dave
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Post by herosrest on Jul 15, 2016 14:30:42 GMT -6
DucemusJust an unspecific - linkAZR is correct with elevation as a solution. There is also the documented matter of mounted and dismounted shooters with reins in hand being hauled around on their mounts bridle. In moving, advancing skirmish, charge, or flight, I understand that the leather soled boots were slippery on the greasy grass and slipping and sliding down a greasy grass slope could leave weapons bearing hands and arms flailing in the air. There is specific reference to this feat of arms in Red Bear's narrative of the valley fight and Reno's retreat up the bluffs - link
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 16, 2016 7:01:09 GMT -6
Robb
I don't think killing is subject to just humans. Look at wildlife populations where the species sets up a territory and see what happens when individuals invade a territory and don't want to leave.
As far as humans you have to be joking in regards to firearms and how efficient we are at killing. I think it is close to 10% hits. That would be an F in school.
In law enforcement we are concerned with not hitting those that are not the intended target. Most shootings are at 7 yards or less and the patrol rifle course is within 50 yards. Once the distance increases to 100 plus yards verbal commands become problematic. Shooting at distance is usually reserved for those that shoot at us from distance. Along our southern border that is an issue.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 16, 2016 7:03:23 GMT -6
Off to an OUI checkpoint on the Colorado River.
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