|
Post by wild on Sept 20, 2015 1:42:43 GMT -6
Jodak They did make use of some hardtack boxes and saddles to construct rudimentary breastworks, but these turned out to be of little value, as the vast majority of the companies' casualties resulted from fire coming from the rear on the opposite side of the perimeter. In short, most of H's casualties were the result of the exposed position and crossing fire, not the failure to entrench. Entrenching has another number of advantages besides protection from incoming. If entrenched you are less of a target. The enemy will direct fire at the most exposed troops.It does no harm for morale and can be benefical for returning fire. Benteen gets much credit for the manner in which he managed the defence of Reno Hill. I think he lost the fire fight .I think he failed to subdue incoming .I think he had no fire control in operation and troops just lay there waiting for their turn to be hit. Is there a suggestion that there were Indian spectators gathered to watch the battle? Seems like an ideal opportunity for a mounted counter attack?
but these turned out to be of little value, as the vast majority of the companies' casualties resulted from fire coming from the rear on the opposite side of the perimeter. Do you mean fire incoming from the river side of the perimeter ?
Cheers
|
|
|
Post by wild on Sept 20, 2015 1:48:28 GMT -6
HiDave
I disagree since he acted on the missive from Cooke as best as he could determine the facts and reorganized Reno's command No he did not reorganise Reno's command. He did not even send for the ammo to be brought forward. He lost control of his own battalion and left his post without any reference to Reno. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 20, 2015 5:37:08 GMT -6
AZ
So Reno did send Weir through Hare to go to Custer. Well to be exact ;Weir had already departed when Reno sent Hare after him . Agreed and that is what I said to Dan25. Too many Indians prevented the company from advancing.This is not correct . No attempt was made to try to force the route to Custer . The decision not to was a judgment call. Cheers
Richard
I am sure that Edgerly did advance toward Custer and he was recalled by Weir because of too many Indians for the company. Since the tail end never reached Weir due to Indians moving their direction I wonder if Weir had not moved forward would the whole command have made it to Weir Point.
The first attempt of the movement toward Custer in my opinion would be to open communications.
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 20, 2015 5:58:55 GMT -6
What Could Major Reno Have Done Better on The HillThe drill would be for Reno [with the support of the baggage company]to become the "fire base" a fall back position ;one foot on the ground . Instead the bold Benteen had everything strung out over a mile;everything in the air . The man was pathetic . Cheers The pack train was strung out for a mile when observed by Edgerly at the morass and before Martini arrived. Reno's command was strung out from the timber to the bluffs. How is this Benteen's fault? Weir left before the pack train came up and the general movement started before the last of the packs came up. So the duration of time between Weir and Benteen moving out is the same time between the lead of the packs and the rear. Come on and bring packs were two elements of the Martin note. The only professional responsibility of Benteen was to the mission which by the time he arrived on the bluffs was confusing at best. The stringing out of the pack train and Reno's command had more to do with happened before Benteen arrived on the hill than what Benteen did himself. Sorry wild I am not following your point. I think you think Benteen should have moved on. But didn't he have the order to bring packs? If the pack train wasn't already moving slow and Reno's was sitting with 3 companies of mounted troopers then I could agree with you but they were already strung out before Benteen got there. Up to the point where the first elements of Reno/Benteen reached Weir there was no significant Indian action between the two locations. Regards Steve
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 20, 2015 6:03:13 GMT -6
wild
For the sake of discussion lets assume Kanipe was delivering orders from Custer. If we follow professional standards then McDougall had an obligation to move to Custer and Benteen could not take over his command. Kanipe was clearly addressing the whole pack train in his alleged orders from Custer.
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by dan25 on Sept 20, 2015 6:20:42 GMT -6
Wild, When I posted the parts from Reno's and Benteen's report to the War Dept. I wasn't trying to say that was what actually happened. I was trying to show how Reno sort of twisted things around alittle by saying, "He sent Weir to find Custer" and "He led the column right behind him". This was for anyone that hasn't read their reports.
regards dan25
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 20, 2015 6:25:52 GMT -6
Dan25
Do we know where Reno thought Weir was at? I think he may have been in sight when Reno sent Hare with the order for Weir to open communications with Custer. So I am not sure if you believe that Hare was sent by Reno. Do you think Reno sent Hare?
Regards
AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by dan25 on Sept 20, 2015 6:34:49 GMT -6
AZ At this point, I'am not sure where anyone really was. I am still trying to find info on it.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 20, 2015 6:36:04 GMT -6
Richard
I am not sure that I am understanding your point.
Did Benteen have any obligation to Reno?
Did Weir ask Benteen if he could move forward to Weir Point?
Did Edgerly receive an order from Weir to move the company forward?
Did Benteen have to bring packs and where were they when he moved forward?
So even if Reno has bugles recalling some troops if I follow you that would not mean Benteen since he was obligated to go to Custer and not under Reno's command?
It seems like part of what you are stating is that Benteen had no obligation to Reno and yet somehow he was responsible for stringing out the other two battalions. Those being Reno's command and the pack train including the rear guard.
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 20, 2015 6:38:43 GMT -6
AZ At this point, I'am not sure where anyone really was. I am still trying to find info on it. Welcome to the group. We all feel that way except maybe Fred. But he has to look in his binder sometimes. I was reading testimony regarding when the pack train came up and whomever I was reading stated that Weir was still in sight. Regards AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by dan25 on Sept 20, 2015 6:51:52 GMT -6
This is what Reno claims in his report.
( I sent Captain Weir with his company to open communication with him. (meaning Custer) He soon sent word by Lieutenant Hare that he could go no farther, and that the Indians were getting around him. At this time he was keeping up a heavy fire from his skirmish line. I at once turned everything back to the first position I had taken on the bluffs, and which seemed to me the best. )
If I understand his wording correctly, then Reno claims when Lt. Hare brought word from Weir that he could not reach Custer because he was under attack, instead of Reno moving forward to assist Weir, he just turned around and returned to reno hill.
dan25
|
|
|
Post by jodak on Sept 20, 2015 6:59:38 GMT -6
but these turned out to be of little value, as the vast majority of the companies' casualties resulted from fire coming from the rear on the opposite side of the perimeter. Do you mean fire incoming from the river side of the perimeter ? Cheers This is a diagram of the hilltop defense position. You can see that Benteen's Company H was strung out in an odd position that really consisting of two lines facing in opposite directions, with both being subject to cross fire from from Indians on the opposite sides to the East and West. The entire position was subject to enfilade fire from the North (including Sharpshooter's Ridge) and South. It was also the portion of the entire perimeter most threatened by enemy encroachment, which necessitated Benteen's charge of the the 26th. I think that it is little wonder that this company incurred among the highest casualties - not necessarily due to any failures on Benteen's part. upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Www-cgsc.army.mil_MAP21_Defense_of_Reno-Benteen_Hill.GIF
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Sept 20, 2015 8:20:24 GMT -6
Hi Dave Custer lost his command . Benteen endangered the command. Reno saved his command And on Reno hill Benteen ignoring Reno's orders failed to entranch his company and as a result his company took the greatestnumber of casualties. I rest my case. Cheers Wild, you are on the face of your statement, absolutely correct. In fact 1st Lt.(Gibby) Gibson's company had the highest # of casualties and he was attached to Benteen. The two things you leave out is who had the most people carrying water/covering water carriers and who led the counter attack against the NA's massing for an attack? I know I may be off base here, as you are carrying your point well.
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Sept 20, 2015 8:26:39 GMT -6
This may be slightly off-topic but here goes: I was trying to follow the "General Nelson Miles" thread on the other board. It was started with an agenda and got wildly off topic very quickly. Keeping somewhat with the thought of "What could Reno Have Done Better", what do people here think of General Miles' account of the Little Bighorn. Any idea as to why he might have defended Custer (were they friends at one point in time)? As, from what I can see, an experienced, respected and successful Indian fighter, how legitimate were his praises of Custer and criticisms of Reno & Benteen? I'm not looking for another agenda-driven controversy. I am curious as to just how much to weight to add Miles' opinions to my overall concept of the battle. I have read the document once; am not sure whether or not the original poster on the other board pasted the whole thing or cherry picked, and I just cannot find the document on the Web this evening to link to. A bit tired and my head is filled with ZZ Top (Great Concert). Any enlightenment on the General Miles account is appreciated. Best, David David, I posted on the other board. Miles just got rid of competition for a star. He knew Custer was Sheridan's "Boy." His statements were an early form of political correctness, he could afford to be magnanimous. Merritt still concerned him, as he was not a Hudson High grad!
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by edavids on Sept 20, 2015 8:58:44 GMT -6
Hi Tom and thank you. Either haven't seen or didn't recall your post. So this was 19th Century military politics & brown nosing the brass. Got it.
Best,
David
|
|