|
Post by fred on Sept 20, 2015 9:45:25 GMT -6
This is a diagram of the hilltop defense position. This one may be a little more clear. It is in my book and provided by a retired army LTC who now does this stuff for a living. His work is great: Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by dan25 on Sept 20, 2015 11:35:49 GMT -6
Fred Here's one site on those Muster Rolls, still trying to locate the others. I have a terrible habit of forgetting to save sites. WWW.friendslittlebighorn.comMost of the info is in PDF format. I recommend using "Internet Explorer" as your browser as it will allow you to down load the PDF's any where you want them. When the site opens, on the right, click on "Table of contents to website". Scroll half way down the page to "The Battle" Below this is some good info. When you click on any of the title's, on the next page scroll all the way to the bottom and click for the actual lists. Hope this was helpful. Any questions let me know. dan25
|
|
|
Post by wild on Sept 20, 2015 12:39:44 GMT -6
HiAZ
I am not sure that I am understanding your point. OK
Did Benteen have any obligation to Reno? Yes, from the moment he reported his command to Reno he was operating under Reno's orders.
Did Weir ask Benteen if he could move forward to Weir Point? I'm going on Benteen's statement at the RCoI wheres he says Weir took off on his own hook, Did Edgerly receive an order from Weir to move the company forward? I think, but not certain; Weir discussed it with Edgerly and asked him would he accompany him if he went forward .He did and the company followed. Did Benteen have to bring packs and where were they when he moved forward? He was to ensure that the packs followed him ,hopefully to reach Custer .Benteen did not convey this arrangement to McDougal. Benteen left 5 minutes before MC dougal arrived. So even if Reno has bugles recalling some troops if I follow you that would not mean Benteen since he was obligated to go to Custer and not under Reno's command? As above ;he was under Reno's command. It seems like part of what you are stating is that Benteen had no obligation to Reno and yet somehow he was responsible for stringing out the other two battalions. Those being Reno's command and the pack train including the rear guard. The command was in an active area of hostilities .They could be hit up anytime from any direction . Mounted troops are useless unless dug in or charging.All the more reason to be on a war footing .Benteen made no such arrangements but rather triggered an unprotected unorganised forward movement which reduced the command and control to a level of which sheep would be ashamed. Best Regards Richard
|
|
|
Post by wild on Sept 20, 2015 12:50:36 GMT -6
Hi Tom Wild, you are on the face of your statement, absolutely correct. In fact 1st Lt.(Gibby) Gibson's company had the highest # of casualties and he was attached to Benteen. The two things you leave out is who had the most people carrying water/covering water carriers and who led the counter attack against the NA's massing for an attack? I know I may be off base here, as you are carrying your point well. I imagine that the fresher troops would be used for the Guna Din detail and were they not volunteers ? I will not take from Benteen his leadership and courage on the hill .However His performance pre Reno Hill stands in dark contrast to his hill performance Best Regards
|
|
|
Post by wild on Sept 20, 2015 13:01:43 GMT -6
Hi Jodak Thanks for the diagram.
A couple of points ; I cannot see how fire from the direction of the river or from the slopes of the bluffs could be effective as the bluffs towered over and commanded this sector.
Untill you are at least 400 yards from the hill position, the hill has the advantage of elevation. Is it not astonishing that the military with fire control and height advantage, for all practical purposes lost the fire fight and suffered serious casualties?
[never been there so I could be far off base] Cheers
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Sept 20, 2015 14:26:38 GMT -6
This is what Reno claims in his report. ( I sent Captain Weir with his company to open communication with him. (meaning Custer) He soon sent word by Lieutenant Hare that he could go no farther, and that the Indians were getting around him. At this time he was keeping up a heavy fire from his skirmish line. I at once turned everything back to the first position I had taken on the bluffs, and which seemed to me the best. ) If I understand his wording correctly, then Reno claims when Lt. Hare brought word from Weir that he could not reach Custer because he was under attack, instead of Reno moving forward to assist Weir, he just turned around and returned to reno hill. dan25 Who is your 'he" --Custer or Weir? Is the statement Weir can't reach Custer because Custer is under attack or Weir can't reach Custer because Weir was under attack? I thought the reason Weir recalled Edgerly and retreated from Weir Point is because a large number NA were quickly approaching them. Weir seems to have felt that they were under enough pressure from the NA that when Vincent Charley was wounded, he just left him behind instead of trying to rescue him. Also wasn't Reno traveling with the wounded? I would suspect that would make fighting in the open difficult and it would be better to return to Reno Hill which was a much better location to defend. Beth
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 21, 2015 6:20:27 GMT -6
This is what Reno claims in his report. ( I sent Captain Weir with his company to open communication with him. (meaning Custer) He soon sent word by Lieutenant Hare that he could go no farther, and that the Indians were getting around him. At this time he was keeping up a heavy fire from his skirmish line. I at once turned everything back to the first position I had taken on the bluffs, and which seemed to me the best. ) If I understand his wording correctly, then Reno claims when Lt. Hare brought word from Weir that he could not reach Custer because he was under attack, instead of Reno moving forward to assist Weir, he just turned around and returned to reno hill. dan25 I think you will find that Benteen and Reno discussed what to do. Benteen at first believed to stay on Weir was the better decision and the he changed. He agreed with Reno. I am not sure where you think Weir was located. I don't think he went forward with his company. He recalled them. Benteen claims Reno was there with him on Weir Point if I recall correctly. Weir was one of the first to go back to Reno Hill again if I recall correctly. Regards AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by dan25 on Sept 21, 2015 6:39:50 GMT -6
Beth Sorry for the misunderstanding. "He" is Reno.
Weir left reno hill to go and find custer, shortly after Benteen left reno hill following Weir, then Reno left reno hill following Benteen.
However, In Reno's written report to the War Dept. on July 5th, He stated that he, (Reno) sent Weir to find Custer. Reno then said that he (Reno) led the remaining troops which included Benteen, McDougall and the pack train toward weir point. (he was following Weir) Weir sent Lt.Hare with a messaage to Reno telling Reno that Weir could not go anyfurther to find Custer because he (Weir) was under attack. Reno then said that he (Reno) turned around with the troops and returned to reno hill.
In other words, Reno's written report doesn't match what actually happened.
AZ, You are correct as far as I know. What I am trying to show is that Reno lied in his report. He doesn't even mention that he or Benteen was at Weir Point. He is also saying that He sent Weir to find Custer, which is also incorrect.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 21, 2015 7:04:35 GMT -6
Richard I think Benteen saved Reno's command I think Weir moved on his own and Benteen went after him with the remaining two companies Reno had organized the rest of the troops and pack train but they moved slower as that had the whole time. The wounded moved even slower and needed more assistance to from McDougal. At no point we they as spread out at a greater distance than Custer had created. I really don't see how it makes much difference once Weir took off on his own hook. What would change if Benteen remained with his two companies and moved as slow as the pack train? So take it from Weir taking off on his then Edgerly moving out with the company assuming that he permission and Benteen going after 1/3 of battalion. I don't any difference from what Weir did in Reno Creek and Benteen going after him. There were no Indians between Weir Point and Reno Hill. What do you suggest would happen differently between Reno Hill and Weir Point. Anything that changed the focus of Indians north of Weir Point was created by Weir. I also believe that Benteen testifies that Reno arrived on Weir Point "about as early as I did or nearly so." Benteen states he went there to gain observation and see all around the country. That is what the military does and should have done while they were burying the dead and preparing the wounded for movement. Reno had ordered the movement and preparation was being made to move the wounded. If anything Reno should have thought why didn't I think of that. There is no testimony that Benteen was attempting to go Custer. He was moving to high point to make observations. digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/History/History-idx?type=turn&entity=History.Reno.p0386&id=History.Reno&isize=MSteve
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 21, 2015 7:24:50 GMT -6
Beth Sorry for the misunderstanding. "He" is Reno. Weir left reno hill to go and find custer, shortly after Benteen left reno hill following Weir, then Reno left reno hill following Benteen. However, In Reno's written report to the War Dept. on July 5th, He stated that he, (Reno) sent Weir to find Custer. Reno then said that he (Reno) led the remaining troops which included Benteen, McDougall and the pack train toward weir point. (he was following Weir) Weir sent Lt.Hare with a messaage to Reno telling Reno that Weir could not go anyfurther to find Custer because he (Weir) was under attack. Reno then said that he (Reno) turned around with the troops and returned to reno hill. In other words, Reno's written report doesn't match what actually happened. AZ, You are correct as far as I know. What I am trying to show is that Reno lied in his report. He doesn't even mention that he or Benteen was at Weir Point. You have confused me. The remaining troops does not include Weir. Benteen testifies that Reno got to Weir Point about the same time so he had to been in front. Weir was on Weir Point and the Indians were near his company which was led by Edgerly. Weir signaled them to come back. Where do you place Hare when he meets up with Weir? Are you saying Reno can't send Hare to Weir to open communications with Custer because Weir al ready left? Hare testifies that Reno did and he carried out the order. The report matches as well as most reports do when information is included from various sources. He even notes that the times were taken from others. I think we should view the report as a summary of activities and not just first hand observations of Reno. As far as going to Custer that was not the mission and the military chain of command would know that. What is in the report is this: "Still hearing nothing of Custer, and, with this re- enforcement, I moved down the river in the direction of the village, keeping on the bluffs." That would be a continuation of the mission. I don't think opening communications is the same thing as saving Custer. Saving Custer was never a mission. I also believe that they did not think Custer needed to be saved. They believed in my opinion that Custer with 5 companies could handle themselves. Regards AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 21, 2015 8:07:30 GMT -6
Weir left reno hill to go and find custer, shortly after Benteen left reno hill following Weir, then Reno left reno hill following Benteen.
Weir left Reno with one trooper his orderly I believe. I don't think the two were going to find Custer. He was going to look around from the high point in my opinion. Just as Benteen was going to do. Edgerly moved off without orders from Weir to follow him. Weir stayed on the right side of point while Edgerly advanced a little further. How far Edgerly would have gone and whether Weir would join them is up to speculation.
AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by wild on Sept 21, 2015 10:17:43 GMT -6
Hi AZ
I think Weir moved on his own and Benteen went after him with the remaining two companies No he did not go with the remaining two troops . He gave no orders , his remaining companies just followed him.
Reno had organized the rest of the troops and pack train but they moved slower as that had the whole time. The wounded moved even slower and needed more assistance to from McDougal. At no point we they as spread out at a greater distance than Custer had createdt When Benteen reached Weir point the wounded and unhorsed were still in the vicinity of Reno hill with men on foot carrying the wounded in blankets. In fact capt whats his face had to beg McDougal for assistance with the wounded. It is slightly less that 1.5 miles from Reno Hill to Weir Point and that entire flank was open to attack . It has nothing to do with there being Indians or not ,they were in an active hostile area with a fragmented command and dysfunctional leadership.
Reno had ordered the movement and preparation was being made to move the wounded. Reno ordered no movement forward .He was presented with a fait acompli by Benteen and was forced to follow on.
There is no testimony that Benteen was attempting to go Custer. He was moving to high point to make observations It does not matter what was his intention ;he left his post without orders and admitted as much in the RCoI. bEST rEGARDS Richard
|
|
|
Post by wild on Sept 21, 2015 10:27:09 GMT -6
AZ I don't think the two were going to find Custer. He was going to look around from the high point in my opinion Is it not logical that any movement North was for the purpose of finding Custer ? And they did hang around Weir Point for some considerable time. Cheers Richard
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 21, 2015 12:29:46 GMT -6
Hi AZ I think Weir moved on his own and Benteen went after him with the remaining two companiesNo he did not go with the remaining two troops . He gave no orders , his remaining companies just followed him. That is what they had done all day but that is not what he said. He said they followed the other companydigicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/History/History-idx?type=turn&entity=History.Reno.p0386&id=History.Reno&isize=M Reno had organized the rest of the troops and pack train but they moved slower as that had the whole time. The wounded moved even slower and needed more assistance to from McDougal. At no point we they as spread out at a greater distance than Custer had createdt When Benteen reached Weir point the wounded and unhorsed were still in the vicinity of Reno hill with men on foot carrying the wounded in blankets. In fact capt whats his face had to beg McDougal for assistance with the wounded. It is slightly less that 1.5 miles from Reno Hill to Weir Point and that entire flank was open to attack . It has nothing to do with there being Indians or not ,they were in an active hostile area with a fragmented command and dysfunctional leadership.
That Moylan was having problems moving the wounded doesn't change that he was ordered to do it. He was needing help to accomplish the order of moving the wounded. Of course the wounded and pack train moved slower. Reno had ordered the movement and preparation was being made to move the wounded.Reno ordered no movement forward .He was presented with a fait acompli by Benteen and was forced to follow on.
Reno sent Hare to order Weir to open communications with Custer. Reno states he ordered the movement in his testimony. Benteen states Reno got to Weir at the same time or nearly the same time.
digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/History/History-idx?type=turn&entity=History.Reno.p0530&id=History.Reno&isize=M
There is no testimony that Benteen was attempting to go Custer. He was moving to high point to make observationsIt does not matter what was his intention ;he left his post without orders and admitted as much in the RCoI. bEST rEGARDS Richard Let me get your argument straight. Benteen was under orders to move to Custer and should not stop to assist Reno. Benteen moves toward Custer but he left his post without orders. I think Benteen can't win under those conditions.
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 21, 2015 12:54:05 GMT -6
AZ I don't think the two were going to find Custer. He was going to look around from the high point in my opinionIs it not logical that any movement North was for the purpose of finding Custer ? And they did hang around Weir Point for some considerable time. Cheers Richard Here is what is logical to me. The big village is north and there is a big hill blocking the view. You can't see what is coming your way on the other side of Weir Point from a Reno Hill location. You can't see what the big village is doing leaving or staying. You can see what the Indian fighting force is doing. You can't see Custer and what he might be doing.
So go to the big hill,later named Weir Point, and see what is going on. If Custer is attacking at the other end of the village than hit the big village somewhere else. I don't think there was an objective established that Custer was in trouble and needed to be rescued. We know in hindsight where at least the troopers ended up on the Custer battlefield but the troops with Reno had no clue until someone went as far as Weir Point where they could see. The smoke and dust may have obscured the view but you could see the village was not packed up and moving and there was something going on toward the battlefield.
Regards
Steve
|
|