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Post by wild on Sept 16, 2015 16:19:22 GMT -6
Hello Dave
Input appreciated as always. In keeping with the thread's theme:
* What role do you feel Reno played in this decision and how could he have done better? My understanding is that Reno practically pleaded with Benteen to help him get his command put back together then took off to find Hodgson's body, leaving Benteen in complete command for 30 minutes. What is your opinion on Benteen being obliged to make his command subordinate to Reno?
On a side note, what impact do you believe Benteen would have had in the Custer sector had he chosen to continue and not stop for Reno? Genuine opportunity to salvage a positive outcome of some sort or would it have been no more than the proverbial "college try?" I think Reno was shocked . I think Benteen having thrown in his lot with Reno did nothing positive even allowing one of his companies to leave it's post . Benteen could not have reached Custer but he was obliged progress his orders as far as reasonable possible. Benteen was not obliged to report his command to Reno and Reno never ordered him to do so.It was just Benteen playing the old soldier. Best wishes
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Post by wild on Sept 16, 2015 16:32:51 GMT -6
Hi Dave
How could Benteen not stop and render assistance to Reno and his command? He was faced with the reality of a badly disorganized command needing assistance as compared to a possible command, Custer, that may have needed assistance He could not stop because he was operating on Custer's time. The price of stopping was time and time was not his to give. It was a battle environment and battle field rules applied .Sometimes those rules call for artillery fire to be brought down on your own positions or have a cavalry charge through and over your own defeated troops. The Indians had knocked Reno and his three companies out of the battle.By joining Reno Benteen effectively doubled the damage.
Also how could Benteen's small battalion have crossed over Weir Ridge and been of any assistance to Custer? They would have been engulfed by the Indians and been a small snack. I agree I don't think Benteen stood much chance of reaching Custer but he was obliged to try and he could have reached Weir Point. Who is to say that Custer troops seeing him there would have tried to reach him. But I'm judging Benteen by professional standards . Cheers
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Post by edavids on Sept 16, 2015 18:42:42 GMT -6
Hi Dave How could Benteen not stop and render assistance to Reno and his command? He was faced with the reality of a badly disorganized command needing assistance as compared to a possible command, Custer, that may have needed assistanceHe could not stop because he was operating on Custer's time. The price of stopping was time and time was not his to give. It was a battle environment and battle field rules applied .Sometimes those rules call for artillery fire to be brought down on your own positions or have a cavalry charge through and over your own defeated troops. The Indians had knocked Reno and his three companies out of the battle.By joining Reno Benteen effectively doubled the damage. Also how could Benteen's small battalion have crossed over Weir Ridge and been of any assistance to Custer? They would have been engulfed by the Indians and been a small snack.I agree I don't think Benteen stood much chance of reaching Custer but he was obliged to try and he could have reached Weir Point. Who is to say that Custer troops seeing him there would have tried to reach him. But I'm judging Benteen by professional standards . Cheers If I recall correctly Reno started his discussion with Benteen with "For God's sake...". Not sure if that carries the same weight as Terry's "The Brigadier-General Commanding directs that...". I'll leave it to our military experts to comment on in-battle protocols but my current understanding given that no one knew Custer's exact whereabouts or situation, is that Reno had the right to place Benteen under his command. Very debatable whether those orders were worth a damn, but this is the impression I have at this time. What I'm not understanding from your opinion is why Benteen is at fault for 1) following a protocol (at least till proven otherwise), 2) stopping to restore a blown command to some level of fighting efficiency, with the possibility of taking extra manpower/firepower to Custer and 3) Weir's un/semi-authorized jaunt fulfills the trip to Weir point which you've stated is about as far as the command could have gone anyway. "Trying" is important but "trying" while flying blind, without a plan, without proper communication, etc., is a disaster looking for a place to happen. This is not to say that there was much organized or smooth about the Reno/Benteen jaunt to Weir Point after Weir got there, complete with unauthorized movement of his company. Just my 2 cents worth and yes, I do respect, if not always agree with your opinions, Wild. Best, David
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Post by dave on Sept 16, 2015 20:56:27 GMT -6
David For better or worse, I agree with you about Benteen stopping and rendering aid to Reno. No one knew just where Custer was other than a vague idea of North. I would imagine that being the professional soldier Benteen was with his combat experience he made the best decision he could with the circumstances he found. Imagine the pillorying Benteen would have received if he left Reno and went after Custer but could not find him in time and retrograded back to Reno just to find him and his command destroyed. Benteen was faced with a Hobson's choice and he made the right decision in my opinion. Regards Dave
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Post by jodak on Sept 17, 2015 8:52:00 GMT -6
Poor Reno can't win. When he was in the timber, all he had to do was to hold out a little longer and Benteen would have been there to render his promised support. When he was on the hill, he had no right to expect support from Benteen, who was obligated to go in search of Custer. Or such the logic goes.
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Post by edavids on Sept 17, 2015 9:16:26 GMT -6
Poor Reno can't win. When he was in the timber, all he had to do was to hold out a little longer and Benteen would have been there to render his promised support. When he was on the hill, he had no right to expect support from Benteen, who was obligated to go in search of Custer. Or such the logic goes. Illogical logic has been with us for all of humankind. I'll plead guilty to it sometimes. Point well taken, Jodak. I've always been curious how certain elements believe that Benteen could just "join" Reno in the timber completely discounting that he would have had to fight his way through 500-900 warriors with his dinky force of 115. That same element also believe that Benteen could take the same 115 and romp his way through 1,000-2,000 warriors on miserable terrain in order to bail out Custer. Just catch 'em in a cross-fire from 3500 meters if worse comes to worse (and it did!).
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Post by wild on Sept 17, 2015 9:22:27 GMT -6
Dave agus Dave eile Gentlemen It is a basic principle of the conduct of offensive action that men and units do not turn aside or halt their forward movement least of all to assist defeated units. A halt will cause confusion among other units,.it will stall the momentum ,it will undermine morale and it will hand to the enemy the initiative. It might, as at the LBH produce a favourable outcome but in the general round of armed conflict it will lose more battles and cause far more lives to be wasted. A commander guilty of such action would face court martial with very serious consequences.
Custer's location was Custer's problem not Benteen's.
Reno as senior officer present could order Benteen to halt . Benteen presented his orders to Reno and Reno having read them made no comment. It was for Benteen to then ask for clarification and if his orders were to be countermanded to request that countermand in writing. No such proceedings took place.
stopping to restore a blown command to some level of fighting efficiency Far from restoring fighting efficiency Benteen lost control of his own battalion and actually left his post without informing Reno. Benteen endangered the command by triggering an unorganised ad hoc movement Northwards. Benteen simply went missing until reality forced him to do his job. Cheers
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Post by fred on Sept 17, 2015 10:36:31 GMT -6
Poor Reno can't win. When he was in the timber, all he had to do was to hold out a little longer and Benteen would have been there to render his promised support. When he was on the hill, he had no right to expect support from Benteen, who was obligated to go in search of Custer. Or such the logic goes. Illogical logic has been with us for all of humankind. I'll plead guilty to it sometimes. Point well taken, Jodak. I've always been curious how certain elements believe that Benteen could just "join" Reno in the timber completely discounting that he would have had to fight his way through 500-900 warriors with his dinky force of 115. That same element also believe that Benteen could take the same 115 and romp his way through 1,000-2,000 warriors on miserable terrain in order to bail out Custer. Just catch 'em in a cross-fire from 3500 meters if worse comes to worse (and it did!). Extremely good post. Nice work. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by dan25 on Sept 17, 2015 12:50:13 GMT -6
Just a newbies thought, not to defend Reno's actions. Has anyone considered a possible infliction related to combat? "posttraumatic Stress", "Self Preservation" even "Survivors Guilt". Even the most experienced and seasoned soldier has a breaking point, it's just that one magic moment it happens. Some times it can last for a short time and other times for much longer. Every one has a bad day, your just not on top of things. Place yourself in Reno's position. You are charging the village. What thoughts are going thru your head? As you get nearer you see the village is bigger than you expected. Indians are appearing. . Are they going to flee? No they're massing. Now some are starting to attack. You order your men to dismount, form a skirmish line. Overwhelming numbers, your going to be flanked and encircled, make an instant decision, you need a better position to defend from. Where's the support? You order the men to head for the tree line, the only safe place you see. Within minutes you realize your going to be over run again. Where to go, cross the river get to high ground. Do you just shout the order, forgot about the bugler. Are you the first to mount and dash away to lead, or has survival mode kicked in? Your at the river, your joined by a scout, are you talking with him when his blood and brains splatter your face? You head for the hill, some of your men are allready there and fighting. When you arrive is this the best place to defend? Where's the support? Benteen arrives, finally support, your not going to let him go anywhere just yet. Indians keep attacking. Do you really care where Custer is? Benteen lead a charge to break their attack, why didn't I think of that, or did I order it? Finally a lull in the fighting. You go to recover the body of Lt. Hodgson, or was it just to get away. The confusion, the noise, the yelling, the moan's of the wounded. Just to be completely alone and think, collect your wits? Custer again, Weir left, Benteen left, I have to go also, can't move the wounded, should I leave them here unprotected? I know this sounds like a 10 cent novel, but every man does have a breaking point or a bad day on the job.
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Post by wild on Sept 17, 2015 12:58:37 GMT -6
Nice work Dan25 and that is why it is done by the numbers again and again and again. Cheers
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Post by wild on Sept 17, 2015 13:04:41 GMT -6
What Could Major Reno Have Done Better on The Hill The drill would be for Reno [with the support of the baggage company]to become the "fire base" a fall back position ;one foot on the ground . Instead the bold Benteen had everything strung out over a mile;everything in the air . The man was pathetic . Cheers
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Post by jodak on Sept 17, 2015 13:20:07 GMT -6
Hi Dan, glad to see you here.
I think that you did a good job of laying out the sorts of things that were likely occupying Reno's thoughts. You got several things out of sequence and particulars incorrect, but that doesn't really matter to your larger point. However, a few comments re yours -
1) All-in-all, I think that Reno did a fairly good job playing the hand that he was dealt. In particular, I don't think that he "broke" in the sense that you meant, but was likely temporarily rattled by the scope and rapidity of events. That can easily happen to the best of officers, even if at other times they have faced far worse, such as Reno in the Civil War. Many point to the instance when Reno had Bloody Knife's brains splattered on him while speaking to him as the moment when Reno "lost it", and that may well be correct. I would defy anyone here to say with 100% certainty that it would not have affected them similarly.
2) I tend to believe that Reno was not interested in "defending" the timber or any other location until circumstances required it. Rather, as a good "cavalry minded" officer, he left the timber in an effort at regaining his mobility, which is what cavalry is all about - not sitting in and defending some worthless clump of trees just for the sake of it.
Good post. Please keep contributing.
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Post by dave on Sept 17, 2015 13:22:20 GMT -6
Dan
Good post! I would preface my remarks by stating my personal opinions are as free from emotions as I can possible be. I have no kin folk who were at the LBH.
Thoughts from the Reno was responsible for the defeat of the 7th Cavalry side. Insist that Reno should :
1) Stayed in the timber area for an additional 15-30 minutes knowing that Benteen and maybe Custer would reinforce his command
2) Realize Custer went North to attempt a flanking maneuver ;
3) Reorganize his command, leave his wounded with a small guard take the pack mules---maybe just the ammo mules---march to Custer's location , this would include acquiring mounts for those soldiers who lost their horses in the movement from the Valley;
How would Reno know to wait 15-30 more minutes? He is human not divine. Custer went North and Reno was to know where North he went? How? People forget that it takes time reorganize a outfit that has been in battle. All that I have ever read about war says plans go out the window after the first punch in the nose.
I am having this type of discussion with a poster on keogh's board and not making any headway. I honestly believe that emotion is influencing positions on this battle discussion. It is similar to the passions that are expressed on discussions regarding the War. Many folks are arguing for their kin folk more than actual facts. Regards Dave
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Post by dan25 on Sept 17, 2015 16:07:02 GMT -6
Sorry Guy's, I didn't mean that Reno intended to stay and defend the timberline, I ment that when things went wrong on the field, that must have been the closest place to go to regroup and for some shelter. I thought I read that Reno had no choice but to leave the timber line, that he was going to be over run. Also read that the Indians either did or started to set the brush on fire. Could use some help with this please. As for falling back and regrouping, this is usually done to a predetermined position. I don't think Reno had any more knowledge of the terrain than Custer did. Having even the slightest knowledge of the terrain is an extremely important fact in any military operation. And before Benteen, or the pack train or McDougall arrived I don't think Reno could go any where with out the Indians being hot on his heels. I also don't think he had a sufficient number of men to mount a rear guard while the rest escaped considering the men needed to help with the wounded, even if they tried a leap frog action. Once every one did arrive Reno had a some what of a formidable force, atleast compared to Custer. And yes he should have used it more wisely. Please correct me if I'am wrong. I read a post here a while back saying Custer stripped 6 men from each company to form a guard company for the pack train. I have found several rosters to the contrary. Custer stripped 47 men from his own co's. taking only 6 from Reno and 4 from Benteen and 0 from McDougall.
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Post by benteen on Sept 17, 2015 16:27:43 GMT -6
Custer stripped 6 men from each company to form a guard company for the pack train. I have found several rosters to the contrary. Custer stripped 47 men from his own co's. taking only 6 from Reno and 4 from Benteen and 0 from McDougall. Hi Dan, Welcome aboard. The best source I have for this is the book by Capt Fred Wagner "Participants in the Battle of the Little Big Horn" In the rear of the book he has a chart which shows how many men from each company were assigned to the Packs. Unless I am reading it wrong (and someone please correct me if this is the case) this is what he states. you are correct about Custer actually the number is 49 but 47 is close enough, but the following from the other companies A..7 G..7 M..8 H..7 D..7 K..6 Be Well Dan..The other Dan
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