shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Aug 11, 2015 15:53:20 GMT -6
Remember the scene in Superman where Lois Lane falls from a building and Superman swoops in and catches her. I've got you, he says. Yes, she replies but who's got you? I think that more accurately reflects how effectively Custer had the village in his grasp. Superman has his super powers. Custer had none. No one had him. His disposition of his regiment assured that no one had him (as in, got your back, buddy).
If he had simply scouted the village he might (big word here) have been able to figure out that coming in from the south and west would have effectively allowed him to attack without getting all tangled up in the rugged country to the east of the Little Big Horn River.
Instead Custer, like Joel Elliott, pushed ahead without critical information and paid the ultimate price. Custer didn't learn squat from the incident. Repetitious, I know. You visit the battlefield and see the flat ground south of the river. You see the rolling but not rugged bench lands to the west and you wonder what the hell GAC was doing.
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Post by wild on Aug 11, 2015 16:44:37 GMT -6
The reason for posting Keogh in the calhoun area is suggested as being to "reel in " Benteen and the packs. This does not stand up to critical examination . The key feature in this area is of course MTCF , Unless that is sealed off Benteen's column can be taken in flank. Calhoun Hill [Keogh's area] is 1 mile back from the ford and well out of effective carbine range . Not only that but Keogh's position itself becomes untenable once Indians start to cross the ford and envelope his position. In a word the Keogh position is tactically useless . Really this excursion North is just a house of cards. Challenge one ond whole spurious edifice comes tumbling down. Cheers
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 11, 2015 17:12:53 GMT -6
Remember the scene in Superman where Lois Lane falls from a building and Superman swoops in and catches her. I've got you, he says. Yes, she replies but who's got you? I think that more accurately reflects how effectively Custer had the village in his grasp. Superman has his super powers. Custer had none. No one had him. His disposition of his regiment assured that no one had him (as in, got your back, buddy). If he had simply scouted the village he might (big word here) have been able to figure out that coming in from the south and west would have effectively allowed him to attack without getting all tangled up in the rugged country to the east of the Little Big Horn River. Instead Custer, like Joel Elliott, pushed ahead without critical information and paid the ultimate price. Custer didn't learn squat from the incident. Repetitious, I know. You visit the battlefield and see the flat ground south of the river. You see the rolling but not rugged bench lands to the west and you wonder what the hell GAC was doing. Shaw,
If you visit the battlefield between 6/23 and 6/28 next year and you pick the night, I've got the beer or ice cream all you can eat or drink. By the way Superman has nothing to do with my offer, you sir are General for the night! I hope AZ sees this, sorry Chuck has been banned, and would love to hear Fred's thoughts. If Montrose shows up I will buy for him as well, you and I can show him the land you refer to.
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 11, 2015 17:20:34 GMT -6
The reason for posting Keogh in the calhoun area is suggested as being to "reel in " Benteen and the packs. This does not stand up to critical examination . The key feature in this area is of course MTCF , Unless that is sealed off Benteen's column can be taken in flank. Calhoun Hill [Keogh's area] is 1 mile back from the ford and well out of effective carbine range . Not only that but Keogh's position itself becomes untenable once Indians start to cross the ford and envelope his position. In a word the Keogh position is tactically useless . Really this excursion North is just a house of cards. Challenge one ond whole spurious edifice comes tumbling down. Cheers As I said you are entitled to your opinion, hope to see you at the battlefield next year. You can share my cabin, AZ and Torrie will be next door to protect me. Maybe someone there will help educate you. Much love, that is to say, I hope you continue to get lucky between now and then. I hope she is a beautiful Irish redhead!
Regards, Tom
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Post by welshofficer on Aug 11, 2015 19:44:16 GMT -6
The reason for posting Keogh in the calhoun area is suggested as being to "reel in " Benteen and the packs. This does not stand up to critical examination . The key feature in this area is of course MTCF , Unless that is sealed off Benteen's column can be taken in flank. Calhoun Hill [Keogh's area] is 1 mile back from the ford and well out of effective carbine range . Not only that but Keogh's position itself becomes untenable once Indians start to cross the ford and envelope his position. In a word the Keogh position is tactically useless . Really this excursion North is just a house of cards. Challenge one ond whole spurious edifice comes tumbling down. Cheers Wild, (1) Who told you that the "key feature in this area is of course MTCF"?! It's just a long straight low coulee to Ford B, nicely overlooked from Luce Ridge by troops approaching from the south. (2) Can you think of any reason, other than gross tactical stupidity, why Benteen would turn down Medicine Tail Coulee with or without a pack train in tow?!!! Benteen's route beyond Sharpshooter Ridge is obvious. Luce Ridge, to Nye-Cartwright Ridge and then onwards to Battle Ridge. Who was at the southern end of Battle Ridge? Keogh's battalion. Surprise, surprise. (3) Why would Keogh have needed to be within effective carbine range of Ford B?! For whatever reason, probably an empty village, GAC decided not to cross there and moved northwards up Deep Coulee and look for a river crossing further north. (4) Keogh's position did not become untenable once hostiles started to cross at Ford B and envelope it. It became untenable once Keogh did not timeously disengage and vacate northwards once a build-up sufficient to initiate an assault had been reached. So that takes us back to why Keogh did not keep fending and withdrawing northwards, and the conflict between best viewing Benteen's approach route (I Company) and monitoring the build-up at Ford B and Henryville (L/C Companies). Because such a build-up also made it unlikely that Benteen would be battling through with the pack train, and he had no "battle through" orders from GAC at all. Look forward to your clarification. WO
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Post by wild on Aug 12, 2015 0:35:41 GMT -6
WO (1) Who told you that the "key feature in this area is of course MTCF"?! It's just a long straight low coulee to Ford B, nicely overlooked from Luce Ridge by troops approaching from the south. I think you misread M...T....C...FORD . But to avoid confusion I shall use your appallation FORD B. Cheers
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Post by wild on Aug 12, 2015 3:43:05 GMT -6
Hi WO
Look forward to your clarification. As requested.... The stage is a battle field with one unit under severe pressure. From Weir Point Custer is no longer in doubt as to the seriousness of his situation. From here on we must judge the activites and actors as per battle field standards and recognise the one overriding factor Custer knows he is greatly outnumbered by a warrior force. Your suggsted scenario Custer splits his immediate command for the purpose of recce .This recce is undertaken at a cost. 1 The split occurs on the battle field and in full view of the enemy. 2 It weakens his force over all 3 Endangers his force of being defeated in detail. 4 Distance and time to his target is unknown. 5 He fails to Support Reno . 5 All this results in very small "platoons" [YOUR DESCRIPTION] operating in a battlefield environment without coordination or direction.
Your description of Keoghs deployment would be ok if he were in position behind and supporting a main force.In this case he is the main force and you have him deployed in a passive mode with his own unit in "administrative" reserve. He should have been deployed for defence . The main tactical feature in Keoghs area is Ford B. Keogh is too far back to even delay a crossing here or prevent an attack on the approaching Benteen. The Indians are free to cross unhindered and to in small groups surround and infiltrate his position.
(2) Can you think of any reason, other than gross tactical stupidity, why Benteen would turn down Medicine Tail Coulee with or without a pack train in tow?!!! Benteen's route beyond Sharpshooter Ridge is obvious. Luce Ridge, to Nye-Cartwright Ridge and then onwards to Battle Ridge. Who was at the southern end of Battle Ridge? Keogh's battalion. Surprise, surprise. If you peruse your map you will find that the MTCF simplex contains 4 features the Ford ,MTC, Nye Ridge and Deep Cculee. Nye Ridge and Deep Coulee area are a mile and a mile and a half from Keogh's position; well out of carbine range and can be interdicted via the open fORD B. Add this to the passive role you designed for Keogh and you see that the entire Northward excursion is at all levels untenable.
(3) Why would Keogh have needed to be within effective carbine range of Ford B?! For whatever reason, probably an empty village, GAC decided not to cross there and moved northwards up Deep Coulee and look for a river crossing further north. To dispute the crossing with the Indians.Once the Indians crossed and massed and the forward dynamic kick in, Keogh was outflanked and dead.
(4) Keogh's position did not become untenable once hostiles started to cross at Ford B and envelope it. It became untenable once Keogh did not timeously disengage and vacate northwards once a build-up sufficient to initiate an assault had been reached. Custer's whole position in toto and in detail was untainable North of MTC. But to answer your question.I ment position as in location . Once the Indians got across the river and Custer's recce force seperated and in the air they were all dead.
So that takes us back to why Keogh did not keep fending and withdrawing northwards, and the conflict between best viewing Benteen's approach route (I Company) and monitoring the build-up at Ford B and Henryville (L/C Companies). Because such a build-up also made it unlikely that Benteen would be battling through with the pack train, and he had no "battle through" orders from GAC at all. Sorry not sure what your point is here. Cheers
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 12, 2015 6:37:39 GMT -6
wild
For around $80 you can ride one of the Real Bird's horses. The ride skirts the bluffs and overlooks the river. You turn just before NPS land at the Reno/Benteen battlefield and continue down Cedar Coulee To MTC. Your cross MTC and end up at the Luce, Nye-Cartwright area. If you continue climbing you hit the road travel corridor. The ride turns and passes Butler's marker and then you cross the LBH river to the Real Bird property.
Just as WO describes when you are nearing the bottom of MTC you see where you need to ride if you want to cross it and continue north. What interesting is that the Real Birds don't tell you where you end up when you cross. You just do it. I had my GPS so I could look back where we traveled. Then we crossed MTC two times more with Chip Watts. The first trip was down SSR because some think Custer went that way. The second time with Chip we started down Cedar Coulee and crossed the loaf into the drainage below Weir. This route closely follows the road. It is in a map by one of the scouts. So we have ridden three potential routes and crossing MTC ends up the same each time .
If you look back after crossing MTC you see how you could support troopers coming in your direction. As you pointed out it is to far to make effective fire toward MTCF.
MTC is just one of the travel corridors available to the Indians and most were used on the Custer battlefield. We all know that the Indians did not travel in formations so they can cross the river at multiple locations. The drainages dump into the LBH along the length of the village. So small groups could cross the river simultaneously and use the cover and concealment of the drainages.
Next year we are floating the river from at least ford B to the ford Ds.
My opinion is that Custer moved off toward the north with offense still on his mind. If he thought defense he could have turned toward Benteen and the pack train. What is obvious to me is that Custer never positioned the 5 companies in a defensive location with over-lapping fields of fire.
MTCF is not significant on how Indians can cross the river. In fact it would be more exposed to fire in my opinion. The Indians in small groups can cross at many different locations with better cover and concealment. Of course they could use MTC once the have troopers engaged. It would also be used to move toward Weir even though there are crossings between Ford A and B. The river was a terrible feature to put between Custer and the Indians. It worked against Custer and formation travel and favored Indians in small groups crossing the river at will.
Hopefully we will have some photos of the crossings next year.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by welshofficer on Aug 12, 2015 8:21:43 GMT -6
AZ,
Thanks for making the critical point that Fords B, C, D and D1 were not the only river crossing points, at least for the hostiles in small groups. It was not sheer cliff faces apart from several ford crossing points. I think that key point is lost on many. I will revert to Wild later.
WO
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Post by welshofficer on Aug 12, 2015 8:29:41 GMT -6
WO (1) Who told you that the "key feature in this area is of course MTCF"?! It's just a long straight low coulee to Ford B, nicely overlooked from Luce Ridge by troops approaching from the south.I think you misread M...T....C...FORD . But to avoid confusion I shall use your appallation FORD B. Cheers Wild, Fair enough, but all the lettered fords were in reality were crossing points wide enough for cavalry to line up and attack in numbers. I consider Ford C too narrow, and the evidence is that GAC took the same view. There were plenty of places where the hostiles could cross in smaller numbers, so GAC never had the option to simply plug the lettered fords by leaving guarding detachments as he moved northwards whilst awaiting reinforcement from Benteen/McDougall. WO
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Post by wild on Aug 12, 2015 13:01:01 GMT -6
Hi WO
Fair enough, but all the lettered fords were in reality were crossing points wide enough for cavalry to line up and attack in numbers. I consider Ford C too narrow, and the evidence is that GAC took the same view. There were plenty of places where the hostiles could cross in smaller numbers, so GAC never had the option to simply plug the lettered fords by leaving guarding detachments as he moved northwards whilst awaiting reinforcement from Benteen/McDougal Yes in previous discussions AZ has confirmed that the LBH River is crossable along it's entire meandering course through the battle field .And AZ' word is the gold standard on terrain and equine issues . And of course Reno had no difficulty [terrain] in this regard. But how it supports your case , for the life of me I do not know . It just removes Keoghs raison d'etre.....He could not hold the door open for either Custer or Benteen. Surely Custer made enough mistakes without being fitted up for this tactical horror. Cheers
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Post by wild on Aug 12, 2015 13:03:49 GMT -6
Tom Most gracious of you and yes I will make every effort to see the haunted ground. Cheers
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 12, 2015 14:03:09 GMT -6
Wild, You are most welcome, and AZ is a great cook, I even dabble and served crab cakes last year. If you give me the notice, I will come up with a couple racks of lamb, and attempt to get Chef AZ to prepare.
Moving along, there are three crossings suitable for a cavalry charge A, B, & D. There are those who feel that the cavalry would be too compressed at B, even at A coordination would be required for the crossing prior to charge. There are however numerous crossings suitable for NA infiltration.
You are doing a great job being a foil for WO. However since he came here, he is in fact becoming a CWO, and has added to his knowledge, expertise, and understanding of this campaign. He has also added to everyone's thought process as well. He is one of several posters here who have brought much, prior to your return. Another is Colt 45. Both have brought to light something that has bothered me for quite sometime, GAC's actions prior to 6/25 and crossing the divide. Much concerns what ifs and lost opportunities.
Regards, Tom
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Post by dave on Aug 12, 2015 14:14:50 GMT -6
wild For around $80 you can ride one of the Real Bird's horses. The ride skirts the bluffs and overlooks the river. You turn just before NPS land at the Reno/Benteen battlefield and continue down Cedar Coulee To MTC. Your cross MTC and end up at the Luce, Nye-Cartwright area. If you continue climbing you hit the road travel corridor. The ride turns and passes Butler's marker and then you cross the LBH river to the Real Bird property. Just as WO describes when you are nearing the bottom of MTC you see where you need to ride if you want to cross it and continue north. What interesting is that the Real Birds don't tell you where you end up when you cross. You just do it. I had my GPS so I could look back where we traveled. Then we crossed MTC two times more with Chip Watts. The first trip was down SSR because some think Custer went that way. The second time with Chip we started down Cedar Coulee and crossed the loaf into the drainage below Weir. This route closely follows the road. It is in a map by one of the scouts. So we have ridden three potential routes and crossing MTC ends up the same each time . If you look back after crossing MTC you see how you could support troopers coming in your direction. As you pointed out it is to far to make effective fire toward MTCF. MTC is just one of the travel corridors available to the Indians and most were used on the Custer battlefield. We all know that the Indians did not travel in formations so they can cross the river at multiple locations. The drainages dump into the LBH along the length of the village. So small groups could cross the river simultaneously and use the cover and concealment of the drainages. Next year we are floating the river from at least ford B to the ford Ds. My opinion is that Custer moved off toward the north with offense still on his mind. If he thought defense he could have turned toward Benteen and the pack train. What is obvious to me is that Custer never positioned the 5 companies in a defensive location with over-lapping fields of fire. MTCF is not significant on how Indians can cross the river. In fact it would be more exposed to fire in my opinion. The Indians in small groups can cross at many different locations with better cover and concealment. Of course they could use MTC once the have troopers engaged. It would also be used to move toward Weir even though there are crossings between Ford A and B. The river was a terrible feature to put between Custer and the Indians. It worked against Custer and formation travel and favored Indians in small groups crossing the river at will. Hopefully we will have some photos of the crossings next year. Regards AZ Ranger AZ Do the Real Birds have any Morgan or Percheron horses? I would love to make it to LBH next June but fear I can not find a ride that does not have at least 2 wheels and a motor. At 6'2", 270 lbs I believe my options for riding are pretty slim, and besides I have have PETA problems. Perhaps I could make the float trip down the river, using a tractor tube, and have a couple of cold brews with all the folks who can make the trip in June. Regards Dave
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 12, 2015 15:30:47 GMT -6
Dave, 20" tube would cover you. Real Birds can hook you up if you wish to ride. You can contact them ahead of time. Just don't plan on galloping from start to finish! You could bring a mule. Ok just kidding.
Regards, Tom
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