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Post by dave on Apr 19, 2015 16:35:05 GMT -6
The Vulcans! Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Apr 19, 2015 16:41:37 GMT -6
I thought they came from Birmingham.
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Post by dave on Apr 19, 2015 17:19:04 GMT -6
Beth They took a wrong turn east of Venus and made it to Birmingham to warm up in the great pig iron fires they had going. HR may have been to the planet Vulcan in his travels and could share some of his photos. Wouldn't that be nice? Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Apr 19, 2015 17:37:50 GMT -6
He just forgot that the Vulcans don't make first contact in Bozeman for another 50ish years.
Beth
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 17:49:43 GMT -6
I keep thinking of my mom who when one of my brothers got into trouble following the lead of a friend. "If *name* told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?" The order to 'charge the village' as HR and *yawn* Scarface see it was the equivalent of Custer telling Reno to take his men and jump off of a cliff. Also you have to place the fact that Custer didn't know that Reno had to make a breakout squarely on Custer's shoulders. He traveled too far away know what was happening with Reno and the village. Beth A mom's words of wisdom to her kids is not quite the same thing as an officer in battle giving an order. Reno disobeyed a direct order from his CO, was drunk and cowardly. He caused the deaths in his command with his self serving cowardly retreat. A retreat he did not need to make. The timber was an excellent defensive position and he would have occupied a significant number of NAs. In addition, his promised support was approaching Ford A, minutes away.
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Post by Beth on Apr 19, 2015 18:45:56 GMT -6
I keep thinking of my mom who when one of my brothers got into trouble following the lead of a friend. "If *name* told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?" The order to 'charge the village' as HR and *yawn* Scarface see it was the equivalent of Custer telling Reno to take his men and jump off of a cliff. Also you have to place the fact that Custer didn't know that Reno had to make a breakout squarely on Custer's shoulders. He traveled too far away know what was happening with Reno and the village. Beth A mom's words of wisdom to her kids is not quite the same thing as an officer in battle giving an order. Reno disobeyed a direct order from his CO, was drunk and cowardly. He caused the deaths in his command with his self serving cowardly retreat. A retreat he did not need to make. The timber was an excellent defensive position and he would have occupied a significant number of NAs. In addition, his promised support was approaching Ford A, minutes away. www.youtube.com/watch?t=114&v=GJC36L5Y5co
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Post by Colt45 on Apr 19, 2015 18:50:19 GMT -6
I keep thinking of my mom who when one of my brothers got into trouble following the lead of a friend. "If *name* told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?" The order to 'charge the village' as HR and *yawn* Scarface see it was the equivalent of Custer telling Reno to take his men and jump off of a cliff. Also you have to place the fact that Custer didn't know that Reno had to make a breakout squarely on Custer's shoulders. He traveled too far away know what was happening with Reno and the village. Beth A mom's words of wisdom to her kids is not quite the same thing as an officer in battle giving a.n order. Reno disobeyed a direct order from his CO, was drunk and cowardly. He caused the deaths in his command with his self serving cowardly retreat. A retreat he did not need to make. The timber was an excellent defensive position and he would have occupied a significant number of NAs. In addition, his promised support was approaching Ford A, minutes away. SF, I don't think you would know an excellent defensive position from a tree stump. Being surrounded in timber that renders your long-range weapon next to useless, with only 24 rounds of pistol ammo per man, 900-1000 hostiles beginning to infiltrate your position, and your support off galavanting around the eastern bluffs, is not a position any military man wants to find himself. As to Benteen being able to relieve that position, I think you would find his 3-company battalion also being outnumbered 8-10 to 1, just like Reno. Benteen's only saving grace, had Reno held the timber and Benteen crossed at Ford A, was he could have retreated back across the ford or moved to the high ground west of Ford A to setup a defense. So if that had happened you would have 2 separated battalions in defense mode, and Custer would still be screwing around up north facing the exact same fate he received anyway. Your opinion is your own of course, but never having served in the military discounts your opinion of defensive terrain heavily. You also don't understand anything about how military orders are issued and what leeway an officer has when faced with changing conditions, hence your continued stupid remarks about Reno and Benteen disobeying orders. I, for one, would appreciate it if you just stopped commenting about military matters since you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. We all get the fact you think Reno was a drunk, coward, and a disobeyer of orders. That's fine, it's your opinion that isn't supported by evidence or facts, only some questionable testimony. You also choose to ignore testimony that conflicts with your opinion so you can keep spouting your nonsense. You cite Benteen's RCOI statement the timber was defensible, taking his word as gospel there, but then totally blasting the man as lying at the RCOI to protect himself. You can't have it both ways, so kindly get off the Reno/Benteen hate train and concentrate on something else for a change.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 19:10:22 GMT -6
A mom's words of wisdom to her kids is not quite the same thing as an officer in battle giving a.n order. Reno disobeyed a direct order from his CO, was drunk and cowardly. He caused the deaths in his command with his self serving cowardly retreat. A retreat he did not need to make. The timber was an excellent defensive position and he would have occupied a significant number of NAs. In addition, his promised support was approaching Ford A, minutes away. SF, I don't think you would know an excellent defensive position from a tree stump. Being surrounded in timber that renders your long-range weapon next to useless, with only 24 rounds of pistol ammo per man, 900-1000 hostiles beginning to infiltrate your position, and your support off galavanting around the eastern bluffs, is not a position any military man wants to find himself. As to Benteen being able to relieve that position, I think you would find his 3-company battalion also being outnumbered 8-10 to 1, just like Reno. Benteen's only saving grace, had Reno held the timber and Benteen crossed at Ford A, was he could have retreated back across the ford or moved to the high ground west of Ford A to setup a defense. So if that had happened you would have 2 separated battalions in defense mode, and Custer would still be screwing around up north facing the exact same fate he received anyway. Your opinion is your own of course, but never having served in the military discounts your opinion of defensive terrain heavily. You also don't understand anything about how military orders are issued and what leeway an officer has when faced with changing conditions, hence your continued stupid remarks about Reno and Benteen disobeying orders. I, for one, would appreciate it if you just stopped commenting about military matters since you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. We all get the fact you think Reno was a drunk, coward, and a disobeyer of orders. That's fine, it's your opinion that isn't supported by evidence or facts, only some questionable testimony. You also choose to ignore testimony that conflicts with your opinion so you can keep spouting your nonsense. You cite Benteen's RCOI statement the timber was defensible, taking his word as gospel there, but then totally blasting the man as lying at the RCOI to protect himself. You can't have it both ways, so kindly get off the Reno/Benteen hate train and concentrate on something else for a change. - it doesn't take a military genius to recognize that the timber was an excellent defensive position, as Benteen, and others said. Benteen saw it, saw the force they faced, knew the capabilities of the command, you, with all due respect didn't. He said, and reiterated, that the timber was an excellent defensive position. - Benteen and his three companies crossing at Ford A would have made a difference. - if Benteen/Reno had fought in the valley as ordered, GAC would not have been overrun. He could have crossed into the valley or gone south to reunite. Never was an option when Reno lost his composure, panicked and retreated. Regards Mark
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Post by mac on Apr 19, 2015 19:25:00 GMT -6
Mac: I believe it would, and at least part of the horse herd would be vulnerable as well. For one thing a lateral movement across the back of your screen by a slow moving village(s) of that size would preclude any depth to the screen, and screens require depth to maneuver. They would move northward away from danger, not across the front of danger. I think there is a fair chance that had the entire regiment assaulted the south end of those villages that the inevitable screen in the amount of combat power required would, or could not have assembled until about where Medicine Tail Coulee reaches the LBH, if then. I do not know why any doubt at Reno assaulted the village. He did not reach the village but he did assault (charge) it first mounted, then continued dismounted until he was stopped by increasing resistance. Not all assaults reach their objective. The enemy has a vote to determine that. I have been accused many times n the past of being far too conventional in my approach, and not having any appreciation of how 19th century cavalry operates (for the record they operate the same way in the 20th and 21st century with different mounts that they did in the 19th). I would remind those people that there is a reason it is called conventional. as it is the convention, the standard. These two, have been reading all too many comic books. QC Gold! The geometry of screen and retreat and the maneuver depth required of a screen is good to know. Based on this even if Custer thought they were forming a screen there would be little reason to move to the east other than a flawed conviction that they were camped in small bite sized villages. Still even if that were the case the manpower for a screen would be no match for his whole regiment in the valley. This suggests to me there is absolutely no justification for a tactically wise officer to not fight in the valley. I note HR suggests that Reno was a recon in force. This naturally ties in with him assaulting the village and forming skirmish lines. Obviously the first thing a good recon does!! As to being conventional; the whole idea of the thread is to consider the military conventions as an indicator of how these soldiers could/should act. Rather than amateur nonsense of silly maneuvers. Cheers
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Post by Beth on Apr 19, 2015 19:35:56 GMT -6
Since I am non military but trying my hardest to understand what you are saying I have a question--or two. If Custer had started the battle pouring everyone down the valley to attack the village, you are saying that the NA would probably have thought they were facing a lot larger force and would have been more likely to flee (we can't tell for sure because nothing happened that day as you would expect it)
Once Custer had reached about Medicine Tail Coulee, could he have split his forces and send a large part up the bluff and then north to become the hammer (or would they be the hammer).
Or am I not even in the right book, let along the right page.
Beth
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Post by mac on Apr 19, 2015 19:36:40 GMT -6
A mom's words of wisdom to her kids is not quite the same thing as an officer in battle giving a.n order. Reno disobeyed a direct order from his CO, was drunk and cowardly. He caused the deaths in his command with his self serving cowardly retreat. A retreat he did not need to make. The timber was an excellent defensive position and he would have occupied a significant number of NAs. In addition, his promised support was approaching Ford A, minutes away. SF, I don't think you would know an excellent defensive position from a tree stump. Being surrounded in timber that renders your long-range weapon next to useless, with only 24 rounds of pistol ammo per man, 900-1000 hostiles beginning to infiltrate your position, and your support off galavanting around the eastern bluffs, is not a position any military man wants to find himself. As to Benteen being able to relieve that position, I think you would find his 3-company battalion also being outnumbered 8-10 to 1, just like Reno. Benteen's only saving grace, had Reno held the timber and Benteen crossed at Ford A, was he could have retreated back across the ford or moved to the high ground west of Ford A to setup a defense. So if that had happened you would have 2 separated battalions in defense mode, and Custer would still be screwing around up north facing the exact same fate he received anyway. Your opinion is your own of course, but never having served in the military discounts your opinion of defensive terrain heavily. You also don't understand anything about how military orders are issued and what leeway an officer has when faced with changing conditions, hence your continued stupid remarks about Reno and Benteen disobeying orders. I, for one, would appreciate it if you just stopped commenting about military matters since you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. We all get the fact you think Reno was a drunk, coward, and a disobeyer of orders. That's fine, it's your opinion that isn't supported by evidence or facts, only some questionable testimony. You also choose to ignore testimony that conflicts with your opinion so you can keep spouting your nonsense. You cite Benteen's RCOI statement the timber was defensible, taking his word as gospel there, but then totally blasting the man as lying at the RCOI to protect himself. You can't have it both ways, so kindly get off the Reno/Benteen hate train and concentrate on something else for a change. The whole point of this thread is to probe these things and stop completely stupid posts like those at the moment. if Benteen/Reno had fought in the valley as ordered, GAC would not have been overrun. He could have crossed into the valley or gone south to reunite. Read more: lbha.proboards.com/post/108968/quote/4942?page=7#ixzz3XoDV5J00This being an example of the utmost ignorance and stupidity. So new question for trained military people: When can a soldier act contrary to an order? How is this act justified? Cheers
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Post by mac on Apr 19, 2015 19:40:37 GMT -6
Since I am non military but trying my hardest to understand what you are saying I have a question--or two. If Custer had started the battle pouring everyone down the valley to attack the village, you are saying that the NA would probably have thought they were facing a lot larger force and would have been more likely to flee (we can't tell for sure because nothing happened that day as you would expect it) Once Custer had reached about Medicine Tail Coulee, could he have split his forces and send a large part up the bluff and then north to become the hammer (or would they be the hammer). Or am I not even in the right book, let along the right page. Beth Beth I must go back to working. My point was that if Custer thought the villages were small and seperate, as at Washita, then those small villages could not screen against a force of his size. That being the case there is no point in not following Reno into the valley. Let's let some more knowledgable people respond. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Apr 19, 2015 20:09:58 GMT -6
Recon in force has one essential ingredient --- FORCE ( a sufficiency of). He defeats his own case by this gibberish, in that a recon in force will fight, but it is also perfectly free, by the definition of the term, to withdraw at will. So much for that horse crap.
Beth: As long as Custer with his regiment is moving northward in that valley against a screen, you keep on driving them until they either flee the field or you run at of gas. . Why would he ever want to flank anyone at MTC Ford and go east. They are in front of him?
Any United States Army Officer is free to disobey any order of a superior, if the situation has appreciably changed since the order was given, and it is apparent that the officer who gave the order is not in a position to be aware of that change of situation. Generally such decisions are made when time is of the essence and you are out of contact with the superior officer, and any attempt to make contact is impractical. Orders are disobeyed in combat every day. The only onus on the officer who disobeys is that he had better be right. There are somewhat severe repercussions for those who are not. Disobedience under such circumstances is an act of moral courage, because soldier's lives, and everything you ever worked for is on the line. It is the oldest of human issues. Do you do things right, or do the right thing. The first only requires management, while the second requires leadership, and just in case there is still some stupid SOB out there that thinks they are the same THEY AIN'T.
The only justification necessary is that the officer's decision was correct consistent with the changed circumstance.
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Post by Colt45 on Apr 19, 2015 20:45:02 GMT -6
SF, I don't think you would know an excellent defensive position from a tree stump. Being surrounded in timber that renders your long-range weapon next to useless, with only 24 rounds of pistol ammo per man, 900-1000 hostiles beginning to infiltrate your position, and your support off galavanting around the eastern bluffs, is not a position any military man wants to find himself. As to Benteen being able to relieve that position, I think you would find his 3-company battalion also being outnumbered 8-10 to 1, just like Reno. Benteen's only saving grace, had Reno held the timber and Benteen crossed at Ford A, was he could have retreated back across the ford or moved to the high ground west of Ford A to setup a defense. So if that had happened you would have 2 separated battalions in defense mode, and Custer would still be screwing around up north facing the exact same fate he received anyway. Your opinion is your own of course, but never having served in the military discounts your opinion of defensive terrain heavily. You also don't understand anything about how military orders are issued and what leeway an officer has when faced with changing conditions, hence your continued stupid remarks about Reno and Benteen disobeying orders. I, for one, would appreciate it if you just stopped commenting about military matters since you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. We all get the fact you think Reno was a drunk, coward, and a disobeyer of orders. That's fine, it's your opinion that isn't supported by evidence or facts, only some questionable testimony. You also choose to ignore testimony that conflicts with your opinion so you can keep spouting your nonsense. You cite Benteen's RCOI statement the timber was defensible, taking his word as gospel there, but then totally blasting the man as lying at the RCOI to protect himself. You can't have it both ways, so kindly get off the Reno/Benteen hate train and concentrate on something else for a change. - it doesn't take a military genius to recognize that the timber was an excellent defensive position, as Benteen, and others said. Benteen saw it, saw the force they faced, knew the capabilities of the command, you, with all due respect didn't. He said, and reiterated, that the timber was an excellent defensive position. - Benteen and his three companies crossing at Ford A would have made a difference. - if Benteen/Reno had fought in the valley as ordered, GAC would not have been overrun. He could have crossed into the valley or gone south to reunite. Never was an option when Reno lost his composure, panicked and retreated. Regards Mark And I suppose you WERE there, and thus were in a position to see what Benteen saw, and you came to the same conclusion he did. You keep saying Benteen was ordered to go into the valley and support Reno. Will you please, please, show us the documentation that backs that statement up, in black and white please, not your assumption of what Martini's note meant. Any eyewitness testimony to what Custer told Benteen about going into the valley after Reno would do, if you can show where that testimony came from.
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Post by Beth on Apr 19, 2015 21:09:45 GMT -6
Beth: As long as Custer with his regiment is moving northward in that valley against a screen, you keep on driving them until they either flee the field or you run at of gas. . Why would he ever want to flank anyone at MTC Ford and go east. They are in front of him? Because what else would be the point of the whole campaign. Was it not to capture and return the hostile Indians to the reservations? Custer didn't have a firm idea where Terry was so he couldn't just to drive the Indians towards him. His choices were until they flee and scatter or turn and fight. If they scatter it would be the end of the campaign. Custer would have won the battle but he would have been ruined militarily, politically and financially. I know that in hindsight the better way to have dealt with the Indians would have been to keep them on the move all summer and as far as into winter as possible but in July 1876 Congress and the the public was expecting something totally different. If Congress was unhappy with the way things were going they would cut military funding and the people expressed their displeasure in the voting booth. Beth
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