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Post by montrose on May 13, 2015 10:34:31 GMT -6
What are the consequences when one unit fails to support another, similar to GAC's failure to support his own advanced guard?
In the 7 years war, Lord Sackville failed to support the main body in a battle. It was done out of jealousy and spite. Because it was England, he left the Army, and ended up being a senior minister overseeing the Army. His subsequent work was vital to losing the American War. You can make a case that without Sackville/Germain, Starbucks would be a chain of tea shops.
At the battle of Tewkesbury, Wentlock refused to support Somerset. Somerset relieved him in a most elegant manner. He beat his brains out with an axe.
GAC was grossly negligent by not supporting the regimental attack in the valley. He would have been court martialed for incompetence, for the second time.
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Post by tubman13 on May 13, 2015 11:06:47 GMT -6
Montrose, the man never shared his battle plan with anyone, he did not have one.
Regards, Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 13, 2015 11:35:30 GMT -6
If you look in an annex "Of Garry Owen and Glory Beth you will find the exact dates when Custer was in command, and that covers nearly the whole period from 1866 to 1876. When you are in command you are responsible for everything, EVERYTHING, and while it may not seem fair to those who have never dealt with it, that is how it is, it must be, and always will be. It is called command responsibility and when you assume command it's all yours, pass or fail, win or lose. The commander is responsible for everything a unit does or fails to do. Custer should have done better. Daffy Duck could have done better. Anyone of the 39 other regimental commanders in the Army and all their field grade associates could have done better including the artillerymen. This was a highly winnable battle that Custer alone lost. Agreed I never got to see the base commander very often but he was responsible for whatever we did. At much above Captain I would have had little contact and even at Lt. not very much. Thanks for the insight on how the military works and from my limited experience its right on. One night I sat outside a general's window at China Beach inside a sandbag bunker. Hope he got a good nights sleep. Regards Steve
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Post by dave on May 13, 2015 11:38:16 GMT -6
If you look in an annex "Of Garry Owen and Glory Beth you will find the exact dates when Custer was in command, and that covers nearly the whole period from 1866 to 1876. When you are in command you are responsible for everything, EVERYTHING, and while it may not seem fair to those who have never dealt with it, that is how it is, it must be, and always will be. It is called command responsibility and when you assume command it's all yours, pass or fail, win or lose. The commander is responsible for everything a unit does or fails to do.Custer should have done better. Daffy Duck could have done better. Anyone of the 39 other regimental commanders in the Army and all their field grade associates could have done better including the artillerymen. This was a highly winnable battle that Custer alone lost. QC Case in point would be the Honda Point disaster of 1923. The military is not always fair but it is the military. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on May 13, 2015 12:34:00 GMT -6
Agree. Nimitz put Decatur aground in the Philippines on an uncharted rock. He was held responsible even though the rock was on no chart, and I don't even think he was on the bridge at the time. He was court martialed and found guilty. He as the commander was responsible.
Point Honda could have and should have been avoided.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 13, 2015 13:01:08 GMT -6
Well the buck has to stop with somebody, luckily these officers didn't have to answer to a Joe Stalin of Adolph Hitler as the court martial would contain a death sentence.
Ian.
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Post by Beth on May 13, 2015 13:27:03 GMT -6
Well the buck has to stop with somebody, luckily these officers didn't have to answer to a Joe Stalin of Adolph Hitler as the court martial would contain a death sentence. Ian. Or Kim Jong Un Beth
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Post by Colt45 on May 13, 2015 13:29:33 GMT -6
Reference Kim Jung Un, he gives new meaning to the term "sleeping your life away".
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Post by Beth on May 13, 2015 13:34:33 GMT -6
What could Custer have done different pre May 1876 to improve his troops? I understand that shooting practice wasn't possible but I have read that some of the men didn't even know how to ride and it's my understand some didn't even get horses until Powder River.
I don't know if this question is on topic, if not tell me where to put it (the question). Where did the band's horses go? They were all white, they have gone to those who didn't have horses or would there have been a general pecking order with more experienced soldiers being able to select a better mount from the band and their old horse filtering down to someone else.
Beth
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Post by herosrest on Oct 21, 2015 16:52:01 GMT -6
To welshofficer - At sombre celebration of Centenary, July 4th 1876, Camp on the Yellowstone; one Marcus A. Reno made application in very poor taste which probably had Grant falling about with laughter in the Oval Room, that he (Reno) be promoted to fill Custer's boots. You obviously believe Reno was justified in his confident self-belief. Please explain Reno' behaviour in regards this application to further his career. Don't bother with the polished spit. Simple prose will do nicely. Thank you.
AZ, Do you know which individual first made reference on these LBH boards to Reno having "fixed" hostiles, so I can castrate the miscreant...? WO It came from the other board by two previous members keogh and Conz. Bill Rini is keogh and a reenactor background. Clair Conzelman is a West Point graduate and fancy himself a Hussar. My belief is that Rini does not care about definitions unless it serves his purpose. Regards Steve Ducemuswelshofficer - I responded above. The regiment could not unite because Reno fled and Custer had no idea of it. Reno was told to advance and not to retreat. These things happen certainly but that retreat was unwarranted. It was easier to fight there in the timber than lose a half the battalion running away - backs to the enemy and disobeying orders. Reno's support was present and within striking distance. HR,
Unbelievable, simply unbelievable tripe.
(1) The regiment could not unite because it should never have been dispersed. Ascending the eastern bluffs was a mistake, and not backtracking from Ford B compounded it and fatally so. (2) The BEF was told to advance in 1940. They ended up fleeing to Dunkirk. Events my dear boy, events..... (3) Reno's left flank, left dangling in the air without Keogh/Yates, was turned. The timber was a death trap, and the only mystery is why Benteen said otherwise at the RCOI. (4) "lose half a battalion running away" - maths not your strong point....?
WO
How was Custer (following Terry's advisory) to reach the head waters of the Tongue by advancing down Little Horn valley, without riding through Sitting Bulls ' camp?Enlighten me do, please. We can start a seperate topic, if you prefer.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 22, 2015 2:52:39 GMT -6
HR
Are you asking me or Welshofficer?
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Post by herosrest on Oct 22, 2015 15:13:01 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Jan 30, 2016 5:05:41 GMT -6
Herosrest do you stand by this; The initial response to Reno was One Bull sent forth to parley. It is impossible to guage how many men went with him but the hope was to talk. Reno opened fire doing as he was ordered. Those warriors spilled to their right, and out onto the western hills by racing along the fighting line. Sioux and Cheyenne did not charge into gun-lines head on to present easy targets. The response from the village was fractured and slowly more and more war parties arrived to gather to the west or filter through the timber, whilst others retrieved stolen ponies and pursued the Rees across the flat east of the river. Some of these must have sighted the cavalry horses being led into the timber. Reno's line was flanked and flanked again and disolved into the timber. Benteen was on hand and after a river crossing, would have brought a charge into the enemy rear. They would have RUN (see note). There is no doubt of this. That was the opportunity which existed. How things then played out against superior numbers is an unknown because of the five companies loitering east of the river.So by the sounds of it you make a good case for Reno stopping his charge and forming skirmish. Ian. DucemusAt some point he was going to halt and fight, and did so where he did. The alternative was to charge through or around the village. He halted and fought. RCoI places dismount about a mile from Ford A, although there is later evidence that this was incorrect. Had he gone around the outskirts, there is again some disagreement about layout of the village, his companies could have reached the crossing place after the Cheyenne village, where Custer's command headed to. The halt to fight was what Reno was told to do - go and kick down the front door. The Crow scouts were left on the bluffs to watch what went on and reported it to Custer. DucemusSioux herders were running ahead of Maj. Reno's advance in the valley, shepherding ponies and kicking up dust cloud. This was brought out at RCoI but the context alluded to was that hordes of hostile warriors armed to the teeth were drawing the command into ambush, a ravine filled with hundreds of enemy. Rubbish. As much to do with Ree scouts has been for a very long time. Despite information concerning the broader battle being entertained during the Reno Inquiry, the purpose of the Investigation was to examine Reno's performance and his counsel obviously made a silk purse out of everything, in arious ways and particularly by obscuring the reality of the dust clouds, boy pony herders, and also - the time of the place. The halt to fight on foot was a contentious issue, as was the times of day when events occured because the central accusation by Whittaker involved the amount of time wasted before attempting an advance (in body) towards the Custer fight. Matters were obscured, which is what can happen during investigation. That matters of the testimony pertinent to contention against Reno, are taken as pure gospel white is rather unfortunate and disengenious. There should be some fun and games with a new book out - www.youtube.com/channel/UCRTRmkk3cfgYpKsQn_VDEGA/videos?shelf_id=0&view=0&sort=ddthemysteryofsittingbull.com/bio.html
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Post by chardvc on Jan 30, 2016 5:13:33 GMT -6
DucemusAt some point he was going to halt and fight, and did so where he did. The alternative was to charge through or around the village. He halted and fought. RCoI places dismount about a mile from Ford A, although there is later evidence that this was incorrect. Had he gone around the outskirts, there is again some disagreement about layout of the village, his companies could have reached the crossing place after the Cheyenne village, where Custer's command headed to. The halt to fight was what Reno was told to do - go and kick down the front door. The Crow scouts were left on the bluffs to watch what went on and reported it to Custer. DucemusSioux herders were running ahead of Maj. Reno's advance in the valley, shepherding ponies and kicking up dust cloud. This was brought out at RCoI but the context alluded to was that hordes of hostile warriors armed to the teeth were drawing the command into ambush, a ravine filled with hundreds of enemy. Rubbish. As much to do with Ree scouts has been for a very long time. Despite information concerning the broader battle being entertained during the Reno Inquiry, the purpose of the Investigation was to examine Reno's performance and his counsel obviously made a silk purse out of everything, in arious ways and particularly by obscuring the reality of the dust clouds, boy pony herders, and also - the time of the place. The halt to fight on foot was a contentious issue, as was the times of day when events occured because the central accusation by Whittaker involved the amount of time wasted before attempting an advance (in body) towards the Custer fight. Matters were obscured, which is what can happen during investigation. That matters of the testimony pertinent to contention against Reno, are taken as pure gospel white is rather unfortunate and disengenious. There should be some fun and games with a new book out - www.youtube.com/channel/UCRTRmkk3cfgYpKsQn_VDEGA/videos?shelf_id=0&view=0&sort=ddthemysteryofsittingbull.com/bio.htmlHR - I assume you have not read that extract that you've drawn the red line around as it undermines most of your battle theories. If you can't work it out come back and someone will explain it to you.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 30, 2016 11:59:50 GMT -6
DucemusIt shows several things. The Ree pony stealers were quick off the mark climbing the bluffs with a stolen herd and Sioux in pursuit. Peter Thompson ran into the hostiles and we know that the five companies were long gone, then. So, ..... as I have and will continue to point out - the five companies did not use Cedar Coulee and reached MTC from the point where Varnum saw them, indicated on W.A. Graham's map; in about five minutes as testified to by trumpeter Martin. It suits pro R & B fanatics to have those 212 men running about everywhere but ford b because, hey - Custer had no intention of supporting Reno. That's rubbish. The facts have to make the model, not the other way around. The Graham map, showing where Varnum saw Grey horse troop. Next, Soldier was there but Stab was not. He rode on to deliver a message to Custer. Then returned and joined the pony stealers. The Ree scouts operated their own pack train of five mules which included a camp stove and ammunition for their Springfield rifles. Scouts were issued the 'Long Tom' riflr rather than the carbine. Besides the eight named scouts, William Cross joined them and so did Stab. This party of scouts further consisted of the younger members who had signed on, and it was them, who returned to the pack train with Mathey and McDougall and the stolen herd, after the ten scouts had remounted and returned to the bluffs before Reno arrived there and before Benteen's battalion. They then made an attempt to rescue the party including Half Yellow Face, Goose and Young Hawk who were cut off in the timber after crossing behind Reno. The rescue attempt was beaten back but the Sioux, then climbed the bluffs out of sight of Benteen, Reno could see nothing since he went back DOWN' to the river; and those Sioux went down to medicine Tale and attacked the five companies which pulled back onto Calhoun Ridge from Deep Coulee. Kanipe met the pony stealers. Martin did not mention them. The given scouts, those named in the Arikara Narrative and interviewed by Walter Camp, were not all the scouts. Other stolen Sioux horses may have been run back over Ford A but 'proof' is sketchy and chaotic, as with all tribal record. After the attempt to rescue Young Hawk, Stab led the ten scouts along the ridge after Custer and they returned, as, Edgerley led out Company D after Weir. None of this came out from Reno. Nor did anyone tell anything that the Crow scouts reported to Benteen about the soldiers with Custer being beaten. No one would ever know, but for the later, belated, accounts gathered from those scouts. Reno completely misled Terry about what happened. That is what he did. Benteen misled Maguire. That may have been inadvertant on the Captain's part, but he kept it going, he indicated to Maguire the skirmish line of 12-13 men which he saw. This eventually caused utter havoc with the history of the skirmish line at RCoI and once Kuhlman and Brininnstool got involved with it. It continues.
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