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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 19, 2015 7:51:32 GMT -6
DucemusThe advice from quincannon in regards command is and should be considered very disturbing. A CO and battlefield commander is entitled to expect his officers to follow orders, and Reno did not. Benteen was late enough, arguably due to Reno pre-empting, that he could not or would not follow orders . Benteen was sent to join Reno who should have been fighting in the valley and not panic'd out of the fight. There are people who feel that Reno did ok, can be excused, can be lauded for running. That is not so and here is why. Custer's plan was to reinforce Reno. That Benteen would go onto the bluffs towards Custer is an insanity. Those who push that idea are not concerned about the events of the battle but its aftermath in regards failures in duty. If what was done to Custer had happened to quincannon, he would be finishing those officers off with his bare hands - be certain QC would have survived. Benteen couldn't manage that and couldn't manage subsequently to support Custer. It was not unreasonable, knowing today that Custer was engaged east of the river and delayed by this, that he waited for Benteen to reach Reno. This is the straight forward issue of any military consideration of the cavalry's fight. The decisive military move, was shown by Patterson Hughes of all people in his map of 30th June. View AttachmentThe trail up the bluffs from the retreat crossing can only be that taken by hostiles, pulling off Reno. This is corroborated by DeRudio at RCoI. One half the hostiles in the valley went up the bluffs after Custer. Accepting contemporay record, that is between 400 and 1,000 hostiles cutting Custer off from Reno Hill and.... no blocking force left to cope with an advance by Reno! That halted Custer's attempt to return to Reno and Benteen and drove his command away from their support and to destruction. People have dreamt up many ways to disguise this reality for 140 years. A modern historian www.youtube.com/watch?v=93ZDOcU2TL4Would you go to Custer's aid from Reno Hill? Would you go immediately? Spot on summary and analysis HR. It is amazing how many discount the fatal impact Reno disobeying his orders and his panicked retreat had on future events. Regards Mark Two peas in a pod. Nether has the background to understand military decision making and refuse to listen to officers that have that background. At least HR has some great links. At one time HR had Benteen crossing the LBH and located on the left of Reno. Jethro 1&2 please do your homework and see if U.S. officers are to blindly follow orders or make the best available decision. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 19, 2015 8:16:46 GMT -6
The trail up the bluffs from the retreat crossing can only be that taken by hostiles, pulling off Reno. This is corroborated by DeRudio at RCoI. One half the hostiles in the valley went up the bluffs after Custer. Accepting contemporay record, that is between 400 and 1,000 hostiles cutting Custer off from Reno Hill and.... no blocking force left to cope with an advance by Reno! That halted Custer's attempt to return to Reno and Benteen and drove his command away from their support and to destruction.
HR you are amazing. Please tell us how Reno got onto the bluffs? There are better trails up to the bluffs than the one used by Reno. Are you saying Reno followed the Indians up the bluffs or did the Indians cross at many locations. Seems to me that in regards to the trails Reno went up that the Indians weren't there. The doctor did ride up a different ridge and was killed. Are you suggesting he followed those Indians?
The conclusion you draw from DeRudio's testimony is not supported in fact. First he does not describe the route the Indians took to the bluffs as only coming from the retreat crossing. De Rudio does describe that Indians were left to observe Reno and that he believed Reno's troop could not see them. Since the Indians were free to move on their side of the river because Custer never did anything to prevent it can you provide the time it would take to ride from the village and reinforce those watching Reno?
Which of these crossing places were useful for cavalry in formation and weighed down with all of their equipment. Next describe whether they would be crossing under fire by the Indians DeRudio described. You haven't been there on a horse or foot so could it be that you lack of terrain knowledge leads to forming wrong opinions?
You got it exactly backwards.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by welshofficer on Apr 19, 2015 8:44:09 GMT -6
AZ,
Painful reading the pair of them. Simply painful...
The entire regiment could easily have fallen like dominoes, to the last man, it had been deployed so weakly and so piecemeal.
WO
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Post by herosrest on Apr 19, 2015 11:40:21 GMT -6
DucemusDave - I have never been to Bozeman. Beth - Anyone who follows my posts or knows me, knows that I think little of Custer but far less of the other two clowns. Reno ran away. Benteen lied. Both disobeyed their orders. As I stated above, Custer's command was prevented from returning to join Reno and Benteen because they were unaware Reno ran for it until it was to late. It would take a maximum of ten minutes to gallop from anywhere along Deep Coulee to meet Reno and Benteen. This did not occur because the hostiles were allowed to interpose themselves between the two commands when Reno retreated. Reno had effective strength of 150. Benteen also and he had reached Ford A, less than five minutes away from the timber after crossing the river. His horses were already watered and rested. Benteen went to his grave insisting Reno should have held the timber, it being a good position. Yan - The failing was Reno's - he ran away. The best he could do. He then dallied about drinking and recovering trinkets from Hodgson and telling his men NOT TO FIGHT. that is, Reno ordered his soldiers not to go out and fight! While Custer's command were cut off by the enemy forces he released to attack them. The object of dividing forces in approach to the target, was to unite them in contact, in the valley, attacking the village. We do not know why Custer delayed crossing the river but simple logic dictates he planned for Benteen re-inforcing Reno before he made his move. What it he intended. Reno's support watched him run out of the fight and Custer would not have planned on that. Had Reno made it to Ford A, the hostiles faced a dilemma. That didn't happen. Had Benteen joined Reno in the valley, the hostiles faced a dilemma. In fact of reality, Custer faced dilemma and could not know in time that he should retire on Reno's postion. He did not know where they were or what had taken place up river until it was too late. QC = Reno did not send message to Custer of his retreat. He did not immediately send scouts or a recon forward. He did not order an OP forward onto Weir's Peaks. He did not set up his HQ. Reno absented himself from any decision. I got away, i'm staying here. Custer can find me!. I'm looking forward to the next edition of Iron Mike's which deals with cowardly connivance and the art of heavy drinking during exertion. You know, according to one of the scouts, Reno lost his lunch during the retreat. I guess he went back to the river to clean himself up and make sure he looked pretty for his command. There had been 8-900 enemy down there when he fled into the river, so.......... where did they go? Major, where are they? AZRanger. You surprise me but not really, being entirely familiar with Reno's retreat, lauding his cowardice and riding the trail. Several ravines facilitated movement to Reno Hill but no effort was made to move towards Custer. There is no need to prevaricate this, Miles was told of the warriors attacking Custer by climbing the bluffs and cutting him off. Reno got himself into an almighty mess - he ran away. What makes you think that Custer didn't want to do the same. Reno Hill proved to be defensible and had Custer been able to reach it, his companies would have survived. Of course, he did not know where Reno was, until it was too late. Why didn't Custer cross the river and attack, or was someone else in command of the five companies when Reno retreated? You are all entitled to your opinions. You are all entitled to be utterly wrong. Reno ran away. Reno was drunk. Reno lied himself silly for ever more and hugely insulted and disrespected those who died fighting and pretty much everyone involved in leading the expedition to which he brought disaster. He was not and is not worthy of slightest respect and is a disgrace. The attack into the valley was a recon in force. Custer sent the scouts but they were jumpy about it and Reno was sent with them. Reno was told he would be supported and that support was sent to him. Reno didn't charge into the village. It's interesting wondering what would have happened but he didn't do it. Apparently the village was in panic with no defence organised. It's interesting to wonder how a properly led battalion would have done in the valley, we will never know. It's interesting to consider how easily the timber could have been defended, we will never know. We do know what happened when Reno turned his back on the enemy and ran away. You might care to remind me of Reno's casualties and the wounded left behind, besides those abandoned. Of course Reno threw up, so that didn't help. It's a wonder that he didn't call up his laundress for special duty in the field. - starching his collars and cleaning up the vomit. Poor old Marcus. The benefits of military experience are not being contributed to this board. Thank god. Reno was the recon in force and his support arrived to watch him running out of the battle. Reno faced 8-900 according to officer testimony to his variously disposed 150 men. Benteen would have added a similar number of troops to halve the odds and the pack train company and rear-guard brought the odds to around 2 to 1 on Reno's field. welshofficer - I responded above. The regiment could not unite because Reno fled and Custer had no idea of it. Reno was told to advance and not to retreat. These things happen certainly but that retreat was unwarranted. It was easier to fight there in the timber than lose a half the battalion running away - backs to the enemy and disobeying orders. Reno's support was present and within striking distance. In fleeing to Reno Hill, which Reno insisted was his intention, he prevented the regiment uniting and allowed Custer's command to be cut off from him, with nothing done about it.
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Post by dave on Apr 19, 2015 12:24:25 GMT -6
HR
Dave - I have never been to Bozeman.
I'll bite. What are you referring to with the above statement? Regards Dave
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Post by tubman13 on Apr 19, 2015 12:29:15 GMT -6
HR, to your quote below sounds good, but you are all about following orders, when it is convenient to your twisted view of things. Benteen and the pack train were not ordered to the valley. The order was be quick, but to where? When it suits you it's to Custer, when it suits you it's to Reno, please pick one and stay with it. It is difficult to hit a constantly moving target. You said we are entitled to our view, thank you and it is you who is wrong!
"Reno faced 8-900 according to officer testimony to his variously disposed 150 men. Benteen would have added a similar number of troops to halve the odds and the pack train company and rear-guard brought the odds to around 2 to 1 on Reno's field."
For convenience sake I will accept your numbers, but accounts vary greatly. Custer mishandled the deployment from start to finish and your argument is sorely lacking. Nero fiddled while Rome burned, Custer dawdled while his command was decimated. What a thought for a new thread, "Did Custer Dawdle."
Regards, Tom
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Post by herosrest on Apr 19, 2015 14:52:35 GMT -6
Ducemus
My previous post, a response to opinions. shows how vitriolic the condemnation of Marcus Reno can become. He faced this considerably in increasing volume as Frederick Whitaker began a tirade condemning Custer's senior subordinates with the use of quite accurate information pertaining to time and distance. This was done in chapter five of his adoration of Custer, where his fiction and imagination eventually got the better of reality and brought about immense and undeserved castigation and derision of scout Curley during the rest of his life. Dastardly fantasy and inexcusable but what a good yarn it was, at that time. Like it or not, the military of 1876 was plum ripe with past it old codgers pulling in salary in plum assignments at centres of civilisation and fulfilling obligations to an entirely corrupt arm of the administration which was mired in the political trench warfare of election. Whittaker toned and tossed his biography straight into that cesspool of murdering varmints and it is not surprising that administration and military hierachy were prone to side with their masters. This is not criticism from myself but a reality of human nature, power and a system which does effectively root it out effectively. At some point. There was both a political and Presidential aspect to the Custer affair.
Damned as he was by the administration he embarrassed, the other side of that coign is equally valid and exampled at Bismarck by the efforts of Loundsberry to expose corruption at military posts. Loundsberry (editer of The Bismarck Tribune) and other leading lights were appalled and terrified by policy which robbed the tribes of their annuities and contributed in no small part to the hatreds breeding murder and pillage, across the frontier. Their home and future. Eventually, as record shows, Grants loyalty to corrupt and corrupted friends cost him re-election but did not deter his ambition. He loved his country, understood it, and strove to build the future but was flawed. Corruption is a fact of life going nowhere soon, as equally its exposure.
Where Custer was immediately criticised by Reno for dividing his force, this was equally true of Terry and of Sheridan. Reno pointed this out directly to Sheridan about Custer and Terry in his letter of 4th July, 1876. Likewise the criticism of intelligence and news applies equally to all commanders above Custer. Custer's method of attack was standard U.S. Military doctrine. Those who criticise the lack of intelligence available to Custer after his decision to attack, fail to understand the most basic of military concepts and are embarrassing to any debate. By Reno's admission he was the advance although again this is debatable and makes little sense since he was not in command and Custer advanced east of the river. Reno was entirely unreliable in his incredible self esteem and rivalled only by his consort Benteen who may or may not have gone to the Rosebud in hunting for a valley containing the largest gathering of tribes ever known on the Plains.
Custer was by far the lesser of many evils in a hand of the poker game which favoured his superiors and by implication offered Benteen and Reno the opportunity to dance on the graves of all those killed by Reno's unauthorised retreat from battle.
Throughout his life, disaster and controversy have haunted Reno as equally as Custer. I have applied for his full military records which I believe will be the makings of a very worthwhile offering and good book. Reno exposed, so to speak. The Fort Meade edition. Like it or lump it, he and his defenders are an immensely worthwhile study. History as you want it. The blood, guts and arse kissing warts. There is every indication that.....................
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Post by herosrest on Apr 19, 2015 14:59:08 GMT -6
HR, to your quote below sounds good, but you are all about following orders, when it is convenient to your twisted view of things. Benteen and the pack train were not ordered to the valley. The order was be quick, but to where? When it suits you it's to Custer, when it suits you it's to Reno, please pick one and stay with it. It is difficult to hit a constantly moving target. You said we are entitled to our view, thank you and it is you who is wrong! "Reno faced 8-900 according to officer testimony to his variously disposed 150 men. Benteen would have added a similar number of troops to halve the odds and the pack train company and rear-guard brought the odds to around 2 to 1 on Reno's field." For convenience sake I will accept your numbers, but accounts vary greatly. Custer mishandled the deployment from start to finish and your argument is sorely lacking. Nero fiddled while Rome burned, Custer dawdled while his command was decimated. What a thought for a new thread, "Did Custer Dawdle." Regards, Tom DucemusBenteen was ordered forward quickly. There is no doubt whatso ever.... hmmm, that Custer was aware Reno had engaged the hostiles. If nothing else he heard the firing begin. I will say it again, that participant record states that Custer briefed his companies that they would go down, make a crossing and capture the village. This was from his ordely trumpeter, there, sat beside him as this occured - after Custer had observed the village, from the bluffs, with binoculars, as Reno crossed the river. That is a fact. Custer's intentions and therefore his plan are known to us. Benteen was sent to Reno because Custer was going to cross the river into the valley. It does not get any simpler to comprehend, unless you are Reno or Benteen and waffling rubbish.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 19, 2015 15:01:37 GMT -6
HR Dave - I have never been to Bozeman. I'll bite. What are you referring to with the above statement? Regards Dave DucemusFirst contact with the Vulcans.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 19, 2015 15:06:05 GMT -6
Ducemus Tubman = It emerged decades after, that Custer's companies were engaged by warriors east of the river whilst focused on crossing it. The story from JSiT is about a bunch of young boys creeping of to gain honors in being first to fight. Well, Wolf Tooth was one of the warriors who fought and massacred Fetterman in 1866. He was not a young buck and was an experienced and battle hardened veteran of the Plains wars. Likewise those in his company.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 19, 2015 15:33:50 GMT -6
Ducemus Worry not folks - peace always breaks out, eventually. Even the 100 years wars ended, although LBH now holds the crown. Lies are unacceptable and from professionals, are utter disgrace! Grow up.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 15:40:11 GMT -6
Ducemus Worry not folks - peace always breaks out, eventually. Even the 100 years wars ended, although LBH now holds the crown. Lies are unacceptable and from professionals, are utter disgrace! Grow up. Lies, while unacceptable, by Reno and Benteen are understandable. Both had many things to hide and cover up. From drunkeness, cowardice, dawdling, and disobience. What is remarkable though is how many "professionals" continue to perpetrate and condone the lies, actions, and behavior. Boggles the mind.... Regards Mark
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Post by welshofficer on Apr 19, 2015 15:50:08 GMT -6
Ducemuswelshofficer - I responded above. The regiment could not unite because Reno fled and Custer had no idea of it. Reno was told to advance and not to retreat. These things happen certainly but that retreat was unwarranted. It was easier to fight there in the timber than lose a half the battalion running away - backs to the enemy and disobeying orders. Reno's support was present and within striking distance. HR,
Unbelievable, simply unbelievable tripe.
(1) The regiment could not unite because it should never have been dispersed. Ascending the eastern bluffs was a mistake, and not backtracking from Ford B compounded it and fatally so. (2) The BEF was told to advance in 1940. They ended up fleeing to Dunkirk. Events my dear boy, events..... (3) Reno's left flank, left dangling in the air without Keogh/Yates, was turned. The timber was a death trap, and the only mystery is why Benteen said otherwise at the RCOI. (4) "lose half a battalion running away" - maths not your strong point....?
WO
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Post by tubman13 on Apr 19, 2015 16:08:16 GMT -6
WO, these guys are like herpes, the gift that keeps giving!
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Post by Beth on Apr 19, 2015 16:28:54 GMT -6
I keep thinking of my mom who when one of my brothers got into trouble following the lead of a friend. "If *name* told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?"
The order to 'charge the village' as HR and *yawn* Scarface see it was the equivalent of Custer telling Reno to take his men and jump off of a cliff.
Also you have to place the fact that Custer didn't know that Reno had to make a breakout squarely on Custer's shoulders. He traveled too far away know what was happening with Reno and the village.
Beth
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