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Post by Beth on May 9, 2015 19:56:17 GMT -6
Sorry to be the straight man for this routine ! Reading the above excellent posts (thanks Fred, Qc, montrose, Ian, jodak, Beth, AZ) it seems that the timber is a non event in terms of the outcome for Custer. No matter what happens there he has already played himself into a position where the end gane is inevitable. The only significance of the timber is on how many of the rest survive. Stay all together in the timber and the answer is probably 0, go to the high ground and there is a much better result. Cheers I have never understood how people think that Reno leaving the timber had anything to do with Custer's last stand. They were at the opposite end of the village. It would be like blaming a major car accident in a small town factory parking lot on a high school that released all of the students 5 minutes earlier. The students couldn't have even reached the parking lot by the time the accident happened. Custer had too many Indians to handle so by the times the Indians from the north end reached LSH, they would have made very little difference in the outcome. Custer himself was responsible for his 'last stand." He poked his nose into Ford B to show the hostiles exactly were he was, then divided his people and lined them up along the ridges like dominoes. Once one unit fell, the others were going to follow. Beth ETA yes I know that is a way over simplified version of what happened.
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Post by quincannon on May 9, 2015 21:01:44 GMT -6
Dave: Found it in Lester Tidwell's Prince Albert Can. The Lester Tidwell's of this world is where all wisdom lies.
Mac: I don't know if you bowl Ten Pins in Oz, but if you do, you would know what a gutter ball is ------- Therefore----If you throw twenty gutter balls in a row, two for every ten times up ---- It does not matter a hill of beans what is going on at the snack bar.
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Post by mac on May 10, 2015 0:00:02 GMT -6
QC Nicely put! Cheers
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Post by mac on May 10, 2015 3:42:27 GMT -6
I'll have a go at the POW for Reno Hill.
PRINCIPLE DEFINITION Mass Benteen remained with Reno and with the exception of the Weir movement, mass was retained. Objective The objective was simple maintain the perimeter until relieved. Offensive Benteen conducted a manoeuvre to force back warriors coming too close to the perimeter Surprise See offensive Economy of force Disposition of forces around the perimeter to coincide with threat evaluation at those points Maneuver See above. Unity of command The command was unified in that Reno and Benteen were on the same page, some may say Benteen was the driver. Security Warriors were not allowed to approach to a point where they could threaten security Simplicity The plan was simplicity in itself.
Cheers
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 4:56:37 GMT -6
Dave: Found it in Lester Tidwell's Prince Albert Can. The Lester Tidwell's of this world is where all wisdom lies. Mac: I don't know if you bowl Ten Pins in Oz, but if you do, you would know what a gutter ball is ------- Therefore----If you throw twenty gutter balls in a row, two for every ten times up ---- It does not matter a hill of beans what is going on at the snack bar. A rather silly analogy. The various actions across the field are all related and intertwined. The actions were not independent of each other. Action and decisions in the valley had direct follow on consequences for GAC.
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Post by tubman13 on May 10, 2015 6:06:41 GMT -6
Steve, off topic a bit, wonder if we can find kayak rental nearby. We could control our float and stop, backup, and get a better look. I have the tubes and can bring. We could also carry a cooler more easily, have a beer or two, and retreat if conditions got too bad.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 10, 2015 7:02:39 GMT -6
Chuck here is “Spike” in all his glory, and I must say that the man is as mad as a box of frogs. linkMontrose, I am impressed with your knowledge of 1960s British comedians, and that you know off Charlie Drake, I thought he and his brand of humour was only known in Britain (thank god) Charlie was ok but not in the same class as Norman Wisdom. Ian.
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 10, 2015 10:12:04 GMT -6
Steve, off topic a bit, wonder if we can find kayak rental nearby. We could control our float and stop, backup, and get a better look. I have the tubes and can bring. We could also carry a cooler more easily, have a beer or two, and retreat if conditions got too bad. Regards, Tom I think water temperature may be a controlling factor. To cold and kayak for sure. There are also river fishing boats and I think Chip has at least one. The rangers told me of floating and carrying beer which would be my preference. So I am bringing a tube so we can go from there. Got a waterproof camera also. Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 10, 2015 10:17:51 GMT -6
One of the things I find interesting on this thread is how little I know about military ways and how much you can learn from reading. One thing I learned in boot camp is that we were not individuals and didn't make decisions as enlisted men. It took a long time to figure out they wanted a team effort and a response without discussion. The officers were not in play until we had learned to follow orders and then we experienced their ability to make decisions which did not apply to us.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by quincannon on May 10, 2015 12:57:45 GMT -6
I assume that was all at the same time I was rummaging around in Lester Tidwell's Prince Albert can, trying to learn specifically to let sergeants do what sergeants do best Steve.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 10, 2015 13:40:59 GMT -6
I reckon during WW2 a lot of junior officers owe a debt of gratitude to their sergeants, imagine being wet behind the ears and given your first command. and this meant taking charge a platoon of around 40 men, without that platoon sergeant I bet that he would be totally lost.
Ian.
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Post by Beth on May 10, 2015 13:47:13 GMT -6
I assume that was all at the same time I was rummaging around in Lester Tidwell's Prince Albert can, trying to learn specifically to let sergeants do what sergeants do best Steve. Shame on you for taking Tidwell's Prince Albert can. My grandfather used to smoke Prince Albert and I don't think he ever threw a single can away. All the grand kids used them for blocks, bowling and they were particularly good for collecting creepy crawlies.
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Post by quincannon on May 10, 2015 16:15:18 GMT -6
My Lester Tidwell was Andrew Franklin Travis, an older Black man, probably 40 at the time, a vet of the 92nd "Buffalo" Infantry Division with combat experience in Italy. For a short time I worked at the U S Census Bureau between tours of active duty. Travis sat beside me, and I learned more of life's lessons from him than any person I ever knew. He drove a cab at night, and ran numbers on the side. A highly moral man, whose namesakes were Andrew Jackson and Benjamin Franklin, and was very proud of that. He told me to pay off your house as fast as you can, buy a car you can afford, not particularly the one you want, and strive for only three monthly bills -gas-electric-telephone.
The next is Pat Thomas, the best Platoon Sergeant a brand new Second Lieutenant could have.
The third is Richard Lane Thomson, my first company commander as an officer.
I owe these three people more than I can ever articulate, and much more than I could ever hope to repay.
I carried an empty Prince Albert can in my gear, wrapped in 100 mile an hour tape, for years, and gave it to my son when he went into the Army. Best thing in the world for keeping little things dry and safe.
PS: Another thing about Travis. MOH ceremonies were held outside on the White House lawn in good weather back in the day were "stocked" Just about every Federal agency would get a hundred or so passes, and be bussed to the event. Colonel ( then I think a Captain) Jack Jacobs, a Lieutenant named Sprayberry (from the 7th Cav I think) and two others whose names I don't recall were to be awarded the MOH this time and Travis and I along with two or three buses of folks go to the ceremony. In case you are wondering it is the same Jack Jacobs that works for NBC. We arrive and Travis spots this two star. He says to me come on there is some one I want you to meet. We walk over and he greets the two star starting with - You old son of a bitch -- At this point I wanted to assume the prone and low crawl behind the closest Port O John. Then they commence the hugging and kissin. Turns out that the two star was named Davidson, he was the Commanding General of the Military District of Washington, and was Travis's company commander in the 92nd Division, and they had not seen each other since Italy 1945.
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Post by Beth on May 10, 2015 18:28:16 GMT -6
Thank goodness for the Tidwells and Travises of the world. Mine was an old many name Casey --last name forgotten. We spent hours sitting next to each other on a Greyhound bus one trip. It was only the better part of a day but talking to that man changed my outlook on everything and turned my life around. There have been others along the way, but Casey's lessons were simple but profound.
Prince Albert cans and baby food jars were two of the most useful things growing up. Too bad I no longer have access to either.
Beth
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Post by quincannon on May 10, 2015 18:53:02 GMT -6
Prince Albert was lousy tobacco, as was Sir Walter Raleigh which came in an identical can at one time. When you were a Private making 67 dollars a month, before the First Sergeant's company fund and the Red Cross got hold of you at the end of the pay line (We were paid in cash in those days by the Company Commander armed with a .45 ACP) the Prince and his brother were the only thing you could afford, for the pardon the pun, princely sum of 20 cents a can. Sometimes I would splurge and spend a full 30 cents for Middleton's Cherry Blend, but not often.
I just bought some tobacco yesterday for 86 dollars a pound. Ain't life wonderful?
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