Medicine Tail Coulee

[Yan Taylor]

Well I am sticking to my convictions and saying that any river shooting incident took place at ford D, look at a map, it has high ground, a coulee which sweeps down to the river, plus a river lets not forget that.
So all the features are the same, so whats to say that any Indian account made by a NA who couldnt give a rats ass and made through a translator to a eager journo who has his own convictions to start with, could easily say it was ford B.
As the old saying goes "lost in translation".

Ian

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

If NPS Yellowstone can be believed, This remarkable image is of Edward S. Luce at the battlefield, finding artifacts.



This is from a page of two in Album 14 link use ribbon tool at page left to access pages. Lts of LBH stuff scattered through numerous albums.

[johnson1941]

Stuff could have happened at Ford D, BUT Custer had to get there first, north out of MTC.

Too many witnesses, told too often on site, and not all hostile NA - these people were not goofy - and they knew where they were and what they saw. Martin? Scouts? 


"The Cheyenne location was about two miles north from the present railroad station at Garryowen, Montana. We were near the mouth of a small creek flowing from the southwestward into the river. Across the river east of us and a little upstream from us was a broad coulee, or little valley, having now the name Medicine Tail coulee.

Our tribal medicine tepee, containing our sacred Buffalo Head and other revered objects, was in its place at the western part of the open space enclosed by our camp circle."

Wooden Leg; Thomas B. Marquis.


"Looking above the tepee tops to the tumbled ridges across the river, Bobtail Horse could see most of Medicine Tail Coulee. Down it rode dusty blue soldiers at a dead run.

From his guard post in front of the medicine lodge, Roan Bear came running, at his heels White Cow Bull, the Ogalala, who had stood by him through the long day. Both had been regretting the circumstances which had kept Roan Bear at his post when so much excitement was going on at the far end of the village. Yet this saved the day for them. With the soldiers obviously bent on attacking the all but defenseless Cheyenne camp, Roan Bear was justified in leaving his post in an effort to keep the troops away from the sacred Buffalo Head in the medicine lodge.

"They're coming this way!" Bobtail Horse warned. "Across the ford!"

Bobtailed Horse, via Miller


"When word of Reno's attack on the Hunkpapa end of the village swept the Cheyenne camp, White Cow Bull watched Cheyenne war chief Two Moon lead his men out to meet the American attackers "at a gallop," but neither he nor Roan Bear joined the departing warriors because of Roan Bear's duty to guard the Sacred Buffalo Head.

The two of them had just "settled down to telling each other some of our brave deeds in the past" when another alarm ran through the camp, this time announcing that the Americans were charging to attack the village at Medicine Tail Coulee across the river from the Cheyenne camp."

White Cow Bull, via Brown


"I turned to go toward Custer, but some Indians had already seen Custer and were going toward him with others from the camps. I went around and came in below, though the company was coming fast, making for the Little Bighorn. Near me I could see only Roan Bear, Bobtail Horse and one other man. On my side was a man named Mad Wolf who said, "No one should charge yet the soldiers are too many. Just keep shooting at them." When the Gray Horse Company got pretty close to the river, they dismounted, and all the soldiers back as far as I could see stopped and dismounted also."

White Shield, via Grinnell


I think way too many people discount too many witnesses, many of which corroborate each other quite nicely.

[Yan Taylor]

Well all five companies made it across deep coulee, the only markers are for Butler and Foley, but again it is just my opinion that they wanted to get across deep coulee and on to the high ground, so why would they do this if ford B was their objective.
Battle ridge and cemetery ridge are main areas for marker, so why defend two points which are over a mile apart.

Standing Bear—Minneconjou—Custer came down the ridge across the creek—the second or rear ridge from the river. He made no known attempt to reach the river to cross.

Gall—Hunkpapa— Gall said Custer never reached the river, but was met about ½ mile up a ravine

Respects Nothing—Oglala—Claimed Custer never went to the river (Ford B) but moved directly from Luce/Nye – Cartwright to Calhoun Hill.

Hollow Horn Bear—Cu Brulé—Custer never got closer to the river than the “ridge south of [Finley Ridge].

Ian

[johnson1941]

Yep -
Godfrey & Gall & even later Benteen vs...well - so many who who were there at that stage of the fight.

Including numerous troops and scouts who were there - who rode with/saw/placed Custer et. al. on the bluffs. Godfrey explained all those sightings away by saying it was just Custer down there. (Never did see where he said how/when they hooked back up).

Bodies and evidence near the ford and GGR - doesn't seem it was a major attack, maybe not even a real crossing attempt - but certainly they were there - with a bit of repluse and retreat.

I am of the recent opinion, based on RCOI testimony - that crossing MTC was not all that easy - within 100yrds of ford, or 2 miles up.

Horns of a dilema.


Standing Bear via Camp, 1910

"Says that Custer’s dust was seen approaching the village over low ground to the east, down a kind of dry coulee. As soon as the soldiers came in sight they halted and apparently were preparing for a charge. All this time the Ogalallas were getting ready. Finally the soldiers advanced very near to the river, but before they could cross were engaged by the Indians and forced back to the ridge where the main fight took place.

Says as soon as Custer came in sight and halted, some of the Indians crossed over, but he advanced against this resistance nearly to the river before it became strong enough to check him."


Respects Nothing

"Custer came down on top of the ridge northeast of Water Rat Creek [Medicine Tail]. He did not come to the river, or directly attempt to. He came over from that ridge to Calhoun Hill where the battle began. The stones in the cemetery at the southeast, or rather in the line running down toward the river from Calhoun Hill [Greasy Grass Hill], is where the battle began...[noted by Gordan Harper]

It should be said that the Indians attacking at this point had crossed the Little Big Horn at the mouth of Water Rat (or what Godfrey names in his map as Reno Creek)."


Hollow Horn Bear

"The Custer troops appeared about one hour after the Reno fight. He was at the Brule village and first saw the soldiers over the top of the high ridge at about “E” [Blummer/Nye/Cartwright]. The soldiers got as far as the ridge south of “C” [Greasy Grass Hill]. They never got any nearer to the river. The soldiers fired across the river from that point into the village, but no one was hit."

[AZ Ranger]

Jul 30, 2023 14:18:46 GMT -6 johnson1941 said:

Yep -
Godfrey & Gall & even later Benteen vs...well - so many who who were there at that stage of the fight.

Including numerous troops and scouts who were there - who rode with/saw/placed Custer et. al. on the bluffs. Godfrey explained all those sightings away by saying it was just Custer down there. (Never did see where he said how/when they hooked back up).

Bodies and evidence near the ford and GGR - doesn't seem it was a major attack, maybe not even a real crossing attempt - but certainly they were there - with a bit of repluse and retreat.

I am of the recent opinion, based on RCOI testimony - that crossing MTC was not all that easy - within 100yrds of ford, or 2 miles up.

Horns of a dilema.


Standing Bear via Camp, 1910

"Says that Custer’s dust was seen approaching the village over low ground to the east, down a kind of dry coulee. As soon as the soldiers came in sight they halted and apparently were preparing for a charge. All this time the Ogalallas were getting ready. Finally the soldiers advanced very near to the river, but before they could cross were engaged by the Indians and forced back to the ridge where the main fight took place.

Says as soon as Custer came in sight and halted, some of the Indians crossed over, but he advanced against this resistance nearly to the river before it became strong enough to check him."


Respects Nothing

"Custer came down on top of the ridge northeast of Water Rat Creek [Medicine Tail]. He did not come to the river, or directly attempt to. He came over from that ridge to Calhoun Hill where the battle began. The stones in the cemetery at the southeast, or rather in the line running down toward the river from Calhoun Hill [Greasy Grass Hill], is where the battle began...[noted by Gordan Harper]

It should be said that the Indians attacking at this point had crossed the Little Big Horn at the mouth of Water Rat (or what Godfrey names in his map as Reno Creek)."


Hollow Horn Bear

"The Custer troops appeared about one hour after the Reno fight. He was at the Brule village and first saw the soldiers over the top of the high ridge at about “E” [Blummer/Nye/Cartwright]. The soldiers got as far as the ridge south of “C” [Greasy Grass Hill]. They never got any nearer to the river. The soldiers fired across the river from that point into the village, but no one was hit."

Curley states the main body split in MTC, with some going straight across MTC. The artifacts support that. Curley states others moved down MTC toward the Big Village. He specifically identifies the gray horses. Martin states he went down MTC toward the Big Village and was given the note from Cooke about 600 yards from the river. He then cut back across country to go back. Thompson sees soldiers within 600 yards of the river.

There is an Indian drawing showing them chasing the gray horses from that same vicinity. There were bodies and now markers in the same area where the Sioux chased Custer in the drawings. Very few accounts have this much support that is consistent with what Curley states he saw.

The problem with picking out one account is that when you pick out one, it doesn't mean the soldiers weren't split. It is only what one person recalls from a specific location. I have learned that in conducting an interview, most only relate what their family members saw. Unlike us, they don't write overall reports.

If you read the accounts from the Cheyennes that were across the river to the north, they saw Custer moving down toward MTC. The next time they see him is north of Cemetery Ridge. At that point, Custer goes from an offensive movement to a retrograde. He never goes on defense. His five companies are fixed and destroyed, with them being in mutual support of each other. There were no overlapping fields of fire for the five companies.

Godfrey says a trail to the east is consistent with those that went straight across MTC and turned up NFMTC. The drainage from there has artifacts that lead to Luce and continue across NC. They enter Deep Coulee and exit near the Calhoun area. That is most likely the trail Godfrey recalls. Someone should ride down into Deep Coulee and see where they come out across from there.

Regards

Steve

Regards

Steve

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

I'm going to paraphrase AZR's take on the Ford D stuff, into reasonable Ford B stuff.... for which there is more artifact evidence than there is at Ford D.

If you read the accounts from the Cheyennes that were across the river to the north, they saw Custer moving down toward MTC. The next time they see him is north of MTC (Greasy Grass Hill and Deep Coulee). At that point, Custer goes from an offensive movement to a retrograde up towards Calhoun Hill.

He never goes on defense. His five companies are swarmed, fixed and destroyed, without them being in mutual support of each other. There were no overlapping fields of fire for the five companies.

Within this we should note Godfrey's comments to Walter M. Camp - that bodies were moved and collected together.

B not D.

In Hammer, page 163, (Custer in '76) Curley told Camp that: 'The apparent line of men between C and H Curley says were men who charged Indians. Other Indians charged in behind them and cut them off and most of them were killed'.

This is almost certainly a typo by hammer, depending upon which of Camp's maps was referenced by Hammer. Use G for C, and the sweets are boiling nicely. link

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

Very few people have read Curtis's actual text in TNAI volume 3. I've found it online and will pop the link for those with and interest. It helps to have read Viola, as well.

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

The North American Indian, Vol 3 Custer stuff is from around page 40.

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

Understanding the Custer fight should wherever possible, explain the White Bird pictograms drawn as a scout for the army at Ft. Keogh. Yes, he fought Custer. There are three which I have seen to date and below is a detail from an exceedingly well organised skirmish which is an "L' ambush in reverse.



Hell, he was a scout and maybe learnt the tactics during his enlistments.......... A, E Yo........ Move 'em out Mister. We are going to cross that river........!

Aye 'aye, Cap'n!

[johnson1941]

Hammer got that one right - different Camp map likely though, so different C, but there is an apparent line of men between C & H...

Attachments:

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

Yup, I can roll with that. There is a pictogram which I have I have seen that has eight dead troops and an nco or officer fighting for his life. It's Cheyenne I think but not giving up the source detail from memory. It might be moodey. A long narrow scroll type item.

Also, that is kind off the area which Rain in the Faces usually disregarded map shows he went.

As you probably know, I have lot of time for Curtis's information although some of his conclusions and controversy is bonkers ala three scouts. However, taking his movements onto and beyond GGH is corroborated by the interviews Curley gave Walter M. Camp and Kanipe then locates Company C into the melee. Camp tends towards this also, in his own way.

Godfrey's idea of the move across MTC along a northern route just flies in the face of pretty much everything which I understand but returns to study with Marquis from his Cheyenne informants. There are considerable difficulties with tribal accounts and I find the biggest to be that they could be telling of half a dozen troops such as flankers (F Company detail) or the whole shebang of five companies and HQ.

I'm always glad to dive back into the tactical models because there is always something new or new insight but it seems to have all been hammered into lower fords monopoly by those happy for and woth it. It was my model for a long time but falls apart drastically on trivial study. If the village ran along the valley to Ford D then fine but it didn't when the Custer fight exploded.

Anyway, I hope you keep plugging away and satisfy your interest. It's fascinating nuts and bolts history.

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

Ian,

An alternate to D presence early is escape and evade at battle' close and rather that just the Timber and Powell stuff about D, their is an absolute tun by comparison, of accounts of it happening.

I can provide decent theory into Ford D as a tactical fight either by one or both battalions but companies were at GGH and Deep Coulee and fighting to manouvre away north and west. Cheyennes saw them. Principally White Shield who saw them because he was at his tipi, painting up. He located the ford he thought they were going to cross before halting and it was not anywhere near ford D.

On that basis, I have all the time in the world for Freeman's sketch and that is Freeman's one and not Fox's doctored interpretation silliness.

Regards.

[johnson1941]

I've been reading Kuhlman lately - trying to wrap my head around his take.

Seems his notion was there was not a real attempt to attack the village (at either ford), but assuming Custer knew of Reno's results via Bouyer, and the imminent arrival of Benteen and the paks, he was simply looking for a place to defend until they could all meet up.  

Agony in the way he describes Custer's doomed men looking at Weir Point and seeing the advance go no further.

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

He certainly had Custer in an 808 wait state on the northern end of the ridge and then a movement towards Weor once that advance was seen. They were dead by then. Charles did open possibility for Custer to have been seriouslly wounded at LSH and a resulting delay but the message which did get through (maybe) was that Calhoun had been wounded.

Nothing of interest from Weir went public and I intend to keep his diary information private (secret) so Kuhlman never added up and never will. His was piecemeal thinking which tried to whitewash disaster onto Weir. His purpose was quite blatantly subtle in redirecting blame. He never understood that Benteen was ordered to join Reno quickly. He never understood that Reno reversed out of the valley after not much longer than a hungry man eating dinner.


If Reno had opened communication with Custer urgently and not misled Terry about the time of the siege starting at 2:30pm, then for me he would have been off the hook rather than a little brown stain. There are many views and opinions and Kuhlman's are amongst the dumbest but of course we have the battle at out finger tips. His was stuck up a datk place, so to speak. He was not alone in that and many laud his blot. I found that intriguing. Still do.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at a battle talk between him, Dustin, and Brininstool who were all involved with Legend.