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Post by fred on Nov 5, 2014 17:09:53 GMT -6
Colt,
I keep reading and re-reading those two sentences of yours. I cannot get over how smart and savvy they are. You have summarized perfectly in two sentences what it took me 145,000 words to try to get across. An absolutely brilliant observation on your part.
Very best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Colt45 on Nov 6, 2014 10:46:27 GMT -6
Thanks, Fred. I'm not really that brilliant of a poster, but your book sure does make those points standout. I was especially impressed with your discussion of the Tullock creek scout that didn't occur. The significance of that fact I had never really considered until your discussion of this point. If he had scouted Tullock's Creek, as he was supposed to, he would not have been in position to do what he did on the 25th. Rather, he would have been further south and a day further in time, and therefore in a much better position to ascertain the enemy location and disposition on the 26th or maybe even the 27th. Had that occurred, I think he would never have gone onto the eastern bluffs and we would not be posting on this site about the battle.
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Post by fred on Nov 6, 2014 12:29:22 GMT -6
Again Colt, this is exactly the kind of response and the kind of understanding I would be looking for. It doesn't mean you agree, it means you understand and that is the key to this book.
Really well put, well thought-out.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by 270win on Jul 26, 2023 13:08:44 GMT -6
If you read the Indians account of the movement down medicine tail, Custer was shot out of the saddle as he entered the water. His troops policed up the body and started to retrograde along their approach trail. By that time they were cut off and disposed of as until cohesion broke down. The kindest thing that can be said is he was a damn fool and waisted the lives of his troops.
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Post by lakotadan on Jul 26, 2023 13:38:53 GMT -6
Hello 270win,
I agree with you! The only thing I can see is that Custer's battle strategy was always to "charge and attack"! Now that may have worked well for him during the Civil War when it brought him glory and rank.
It didn't work so well for him on June 25th, 1876!
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Post by herosrest on Jul 26, 2023 14:07:02 GMT -6
The Custer shot in the water idea is broadly discounted since it arrived from Goes Aheads wife and Humpries Miller with White Cow Bull. It is a can of worms which drops Keogh into command east of the river, and notice of the loss sent rapidly to Reno. There is certainly a good book in itbut very little in the way of primary source that is acceptable. Custer with the chest wound would explain his location to the north in riding until he dropped or was knocked of the horse by Black Coyote's wife. It can never be ruled out and is neat and tidy except that, five companies don't simply fall apart because Custer is unservicable. It really isn't popular. The topic post turns to line of sight from MTC and one can add the flat and Luce and Nye- Cartwright, which do not offer good or any views of events in the valley. There is a map in G.P. Buell's collection from his time commanding at Ft. Custer until 1879 and there was timber east of the river along the mouths ot MTC and North MT. You could not see squat until going up on Greasy Grass Hill. www.friendslittlebighorn.com/images/archeology/MT-Digging.jpg www.friendslittlebighorn.com/images/archeology/Remington-Found-Here.jpgBy then the command was cut off and being attacked across MTC. All very simple and straightforward. Just as Curtis outlined in volume 3 of the NA Indian in 1908.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 27, 2023 12:45:33 GMT -6
Camp did a walk down Cedar into MTC to see exactly what one could see from where. He was trying to get a notion of just where Martin had been sent back - where Custer could see the lower part of village. it was 6184' from the river. (Martin also mentions it being after 'they got even with/passed the high point') At least 2 witnesses at the RCOI stated that MTC had high banks which would make crossing it very hard except within 100’ of the ford, or passed 2 miles up. That would certainy give a reason for going towards the river and onto the flats if Custer wanted to move north. As HR says, seems Curtis had that right. Sheridan RCOO Q) Following the banks of the ravine from “B” did you notice the approaches to it? A) Yes, sir, I went down the ravine on what may be known as the left bank of it, I suppose two miles, and then crossed it. Q) There are bluffs on the right bank following it from the mouth up? A) After you get above the mouth 30 or 40 yards it would be difficult to cross it till you went up nearly two miles, it had steep cut banks. Herendeen RCOI Q) Do you know whether there was a ford there? A) The next year there was a good ford there, right in the vicinity of the mouth of the creek. Q) A command moving in from above there, how would it get to the place where the bodies were found afterwards, with a view to getting a good route? A) It was easy only at one place where the creek came in, and they could cross at the mouth of it where I was myself. Q) From your knowledge of the country, from the point where the commands separated, what was the probable route of General Custer, or have you any idea in regard to that? What trail do you think he took, and did he come to this watering place, or strike the river lower down? A) I should think they would come to the river to get around easy. There was a swale that led to the creek and then they could follow the creek down. Attachments:
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Post by noggy on Jul 28, 2023 6:15:12 GMT -6
If you read the Indians account of the movement down medicine tail, Custer was shot out of the saddle as he entered the water. Hello. No, they did not know GAC by looks, so they did not say that he was shot out of his saddle. Some sources say that an officer wearing buckskin was shot while out in the river. That could have been several people. Martini said that when he left the 5 companies, GAC was not wearing his jacket, btw. So who knows? And when talking about Indian accounts, they are not all the same. In fact, and I recommend Lakota Noon here for a good analysis and comparison of testimonies, several say the troopers turned around long before they reached the river. So there you go. Kinda All the best, Noggy
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 28, 2023 7:19:34 GMT -6
I'm with He Dog...
"They kept right on down the river and crossed Medicine Tail coulee and onto little rise. When Custer passed near to Ford B, he was moving as though to reach the lower ford of our camp."
He Dog also thought Custer cut off the corner of South coulee and MTC, while Martin said they used the coulee all the way down.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 28, 2023 8:53:01 GMT -6
Makes sense to stick to the high ground, keep moving and always keep your distance from your enemy until you can strike your target. Why give up your two biggests assets in mobility and firepower to allow for the village to repel you.
Ian
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Post by noggy on Jul 28, 2023 11:53:20 GMT -6
The people who supposedly fought at/around Ford B (that's the classic placement for the incident), did not remember White Cow Bull being there. Yet, since he was the one interview 60 years later, his story, including shooting an officer in the river, has tended to be accepted. The more you ook at WCB's story, the crazier it gets.
I can't remember or repeat what Bobtail and the guys who were at the ford said, but I would encourage everyone interested in the "Custer was shot at Ford B" thing to read them. Again, they are collected in Lakota Noon with a good analysis.
Noggy
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 28, 2023 13:30:48 GMT -6
The alleged incident, all in here Geir linkIan
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Post by herosrest on Jul 28, 2023 14:49:57 GMT -6
The Astonisher sketch looks like the terrain of the Medicine Tail coulee crossing link which is a ravine at the river passing down to a flat and the river. It is diffcult to believe that the crossing was not scouted and we know no crossing was made. We have just the one standout account from Miller given decades later and entwined with the Monaseeta story also. I am not sure when Roan Bear passed away to de-bunk Miller and WCB but the story may have done the rounds amongst the tribes before Miller heard it from WCB. It really is one of those things and moreso since Sturgis was never identified. The father sent a spy north the following year, to Sitting Bull in Canada, and found out what happened to his boy. It never became public and it seems the family were never told either since the wife visited in 1878. The relevant ford was located for George B. Grinnell in his Fighting Cheyennes book, by White Shield. The troops were headed straight for the ford - about half a mile above the battle - field. The Cheyenne camp was opposite the divide of Deep and Medicine Tail Coulee so the location of the troops is known and that of the ford, also. All Ford B action. However, the ford the troops were heading for was the lower Ford B. As Curtis said, by the time troops reached the area of Greasy Grass Hill, the retreat from the valley was done and the companies with Custer were then cut off and moved north. That was done because large numbers of the hostiles attacked down the right bank, from Weir Peak and across MTC and were seen coming in clouds of dust. Reno's fight in the valley was over and done in minutes. Grinnell - relevant pages
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Post by herosrest on Jul 28, 2023 15:03:36 GMT -6
Brave Bear accounts from Astonisher. I've injected comment from earlier in the topic, which had fred raving and is poingiant given the way I understand the fighting evolved. Mac, I think you nailed it. I am in the middle of Fred's new book and it is becoming very apparent that the timing of what was going on at the time some of his decisions were made makes the decision seem correct, even though it was very wrong. I totally agree that he became so focused on what he thought he knew at the time of the decision (or decisions) that he ignored other signs that would have led him to alter his course of action. I don't have a clue how many million words of comment this history has evolved into but it steadfastly avoids simple reality. of being cut off and moving to battle ridge.
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Post by noggy on Jul 29, 2023 2:07:16 GMT -6
Yep, I've read it. Now, I think the site is good as a collection of interviews and stuff. But the author, when he concludes that WCB is most likely Custer's "killer", imo disqualifies himself as someone who's own theories I at least would take very seriously. G
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