shaw
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Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Mar 3, 2016 16:18:42 GMT -6
It didn't help that Reno didn't have a winning personality. He was an easy target and even the RCOI didn't emotionally free him. And as I have stated before (drum roll), Custer was on the wrong side of the river to easily turn the NA's flank and run off the horse herd. Had he scouted the village ahead of time he would have seen that sending Reno in from the south and leading the rest of the regiment on a westward swing along the bench lands would have given him a better chance.
I get it. He was trying to keep the village from scattering. Blah, blah, blah. If he had sent a fast moving advanced scout out even the morning of June 25th they could have reconnoitered the village and ridden back with the layout. Custer had good scouts. He really underutilized them.
Game over.
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Post by brenda56 on Mar 17, 2016 5:53:06 GMT -6
Horse handlers, single shot carbines,six shot pistols(assuming all cavalry soldiers carried one), big village tend to suggest assault-mode-Custer could only do that which he did. He did not have the firepower or sustainability of that firepower to support Reno in a full frontal assault. If indeed all of the 7th reached the big village the carbine would have been of no use and more than likely the six shots from the pistols been more of a collateral issue. Once Custer decided to attack he had to split his forces. That's what the message' be quick, big village etc suggests.
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Post by edavids on Mar 17, 2016 6:38:31 GMT -6
Horse handlers, single shot carbines,six shot pistols(assuming all cavalry soldiers carried one), big village tend to suggest assault-mode-Custer could only do that which he did. He did not have the firepower or sustainability of that firepower to support Reno in a full frontal assault. If indeed all of the 7th reached the big village the carbine would have been of no use and more than likely the six shots from the pistols been more of a collateral issue. Once Custer decided to attack he had to split his forces. That's what the message' be quick, big village etc suggests. Hi Brenda: If Custer did not have the firepower to support Reno in a full frontal assault with 210 troops why send Reno on a full frontal assault with only 125 or so? That assault by Reno needed to be supported and support was promised. The age old argument will always be whether Reno left the valley too soon or Custer failed to attack in a timely manner. Bottom line is that the attack in the valley was not supported. Error compounded by Custer continuing to move away from the rest of his regiment. Great point on pistols v carbines. Best, David
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 17, 2016 7:09:23 GMT -6
The point of an (surprise) attack is to cause panic and chaos, not so much to kill every Indian in sight. The soldiers had adequate firepower to inflict enough casualties and capture enough Indians to make a difference. That worked at the Washita and Custer felt that would work at the LBH. The differences was this was not a Winter Campaign, it was not an attack at dawn and it was not the hapless Black Kettle who Custer attacked, but the most formidable and capable warriors on the Northern Plains. You might want to throw in one of the largest villages ever known.
Custer did surprise the village but as noted the fiercest warriors on the plains were fully capable of countering and turning the tables on the 7th.
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Post by montrose on Mar 17, 2016 9:38:00 GMT -6
Horse handlers, single shot carbines,six shot pistols(assuming all cavalry soldiers carried one), big village tend to suggest assault-mode-Custer could only do that which he did. He did not have the firepower or sustainability of that firepower to support Reno in a full frontal assault. If indeed all of the 7th reached the big village the carbine would have been of no use and more than likely the six shots from the pistols been more of a collateral issue. Once Custer decided to attack he had to split his forces. That's what the message' be quick, big village etc suggests. Hi Brenda: If Custer did not have the firepower to support Reno in a full frontal assault with 210 troops why send Reno on a full frontal assault with only 125 or so? That assault by Reno needed to be supported and support was promised. The age old argument will always be whether Reno left the valley too soon or Custer failed to attack in a timely manner. Bottom line is that the attack in the valley was not supported. Error compounded by Custer continuing to move away from the rest of his regiment. Great point on pistols v carbines. Best, David I agree with neither. Reno's error was advancing too far from Ford A, when the regiment failed to deploy where they should have been, two tactical bounds back. The reality is not that Reno left the valley too soon; he left it too late. Brenda, I have strong disagreement that sending soldiers off in penny packets across the battlefield is a great plan, especially when there was no central command and control, no common operational picture, no methods or means to react to what the enemy was doing. Custer's rash and grossly incompetent decisions at Trevilian Station was salvaged by more mature and competent decision makers who reacted to his incompetence. At LBH, there was no adult supervision. Respectfully, William
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Post by edavids on Mar 17, 2016 14:37:29 GMT -6
Duly noted.
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Post by dave on Mar 17, 2016 16:00:03 GMT -6
montrose Your post: "Custer's rash and grossly incompetent decisions at Trevilian Station was salvaged by more mature and competent decision makers who reacted to his incompetence. At LBH, there was no adult supervision."
Brilliant observation in an very pithy manner! Glad to have you back, you have been missed. Regards Dave
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Post by edavids on Mar 17, 2016 17:32:41 GMT -6
Nothing pithy about Montrose's response ;-). Custer's skill was leading "hell bent for leather charges" during the ACW. Often effective and he often had support. He got the support he failed to provide Reno at LBH.
There may have been instances of unsupported successfilul engagements but I do not have my history book in front of me.
Duly noted on Montrose's point; Reno left too late than too early. The point I attempted to make is that the argument I have seen so many times, rightly or wrongly, is whether or not Reno left too soon or Custer arrived too late (with too little!) therefore failing any purported attempts to support the valley attack. I understand there are variations.
Montrose shined up his monkey wrench before throwing it into the middle of the former debate. Well done!
Best,
David
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Post by dave on Mar 17, 2016 19:08:52 GMT -6
David Don't feel bad. montrose is well known for amassing an incredible amount of information from his 45 year army career. He knows not only where the bodies are buried he knew them before they joined the service.
As a Boston Brahmin, he even watched the Great Yaz play the Green Monster back in the 60's. montrose's folks came over on the Arbella 10 years after the Mayflower so the Pilgrims could get it all set up for his family. He knew the Babe before he signed with the Yankees! Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Mar 17, 2016 21:04:53 GMT -6
That reminds me of some quote I read somewhere "We sent our servants over on the Mayflower."
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Post by edavids on Mar 17, 2016 22:16:32 GMT -6
David Don't feel bad. montrose is well known for amassing an incredible amount of information from his 45 year army career. He knows not only where the bodies are buried he knew them before they joined the service. As a Boston Brahmin, he even watched the Great Yaz play the Green Monster back in the 60's. montrose's folks came over on the Arbella 10 years after the Mayflower so the Pilgrims could get it all set up for his family. He knew the Babe before he signed with the Yankees! Regards Dave Nothing to feel badly about. Of course life for Montrose turned sunny when, after he watched the Sawx win the. series in '18 he had to wait till '04 to witness it again. Even though my Yankees screwed the pooch that year by blowing a 3-0 lead, they did win 26 World Series during an 86 year drought for the Bean Heads ;-) I will follow the Montrose Mantra on LBH with due diligence. Best, David
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Post by dan25 on Nov 11, 2016 11:07:58 GMT -6
Gentleman, If this has been discussed or offered as a theory before I apologize.
There has been several theories about what Custer planned to do after sending Reno into the valley.
Deliver a 1 2, or 1 2 3 punch down the valley.
The hammer and anvil tactic.
To capture or threaten as many non combatants as possible.
If you carefully look at his actual movements after seperating from Reno, it's pretty obvious he did not intend to do any of those things mentioned above.
What if Custer had no intension of actually attacking the village, but allowing them to escape in the direction he wanted them to go. North.
Maybe he did consider his scouts reports regarding how large the village was and there was to many Indians to fight, or did he have a plan even before arriving at the LBH.
Maybe he decided to just show the presence of the soldiers to the south and east blocking their escape routes and allow them to flee north towards Gibbons and Terry.
Regards Dan25
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Post by Colt45 on Nov 11, 2016 13:38:40 GMT -6
Dan, I don't think Custer had any intentions of letting the Indians run to the north into Terry and Gibbon. He needed the victory to be a 7th Cavalry affair. Read Custer's Trials, if you haven't already, to get a good idea of how he thought and what his motivations were.
I think initially he fully planned to follow Reno into the valley, with Reno being the advanced guard to start the action so Custer could further develop the battle once he saw what the enemy was going to do. What probably changed his mind was the report that the Indians were coming out to meet Reno. I believe this information came from either one of the scouts or from the first messenger Reno sent back. In any event, this report probably led Custer to believe the Indians coming out were a screening force designed to delay Reno until the village could flee north. At this point, Custer probably felt like he could move up the bluffs and head north in the attempt to cut off the northern retreat.
Custer had used envelopment before so heading north to hit the village from down river would have made sense, and at the time he swung up the bluffs, he had not seen the village and had no idea just how big it was. It wasn't until the vicinity of 3411 that he would have had an idea of what he was up against. At that time, it's almost too late to go back to Ford A and move into the valley, so he continues with the plan of getting north of the village.
From 3411 on, Custer was flying by the seat of his pants, with no real plan in mind other than to get north of the village and then attack. From LNC, he would have been able to see that Ford B was a no-go crossing place and therefore he must push even further to the north, away from support. In the Ford D area, once repulsed from crossing, he was in reaction mode only. There was no plan at all for extricating his butt from the sling it was in. And the Indians certainly didn't give him time to come up with an escape plan.
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Post by benteen on Nov 11, 2016 15:24:45 GMT -6
What if Custer had no intension of actually attacking the village, but allowing them to escape in the direction he wanted them to go. North. Maybe he decided to just show the presence of the soldiers to the south and east blocking their escape routes and allow them to flee north towards Gibbons and Terry. Regards Dan25 Dan, I think that Colt 45 hit the nail on the head.In my opinion the last thing Custer wanted was for the Indians to go North. Custer was all about Custer. He was in the doghouse and this was going to bet he victory he needed to regain his former glory. I dont believe he cared one whit about Terry,his mission, the Army or anything else but having this victory for himself. Thats why he turned down the additional Cavalry, why he attacked a day early on the 25th, (I dont believe that breadbox nonsense for one second) thats why he wanted to attack in the North, to keep them away from Terry. Exactly the opposite of his orders, which were to prevent them fleeing to the South. Dan, I have said this before, no one can ask a man to do more than die for his actions and Custer did. However where I am not fond of Custer (To put it mildly) is because he didnt give a damn about his men. Sure if he won he would get all the accolades but there were 265 others that also died that didnt share in his visions of fame and glory. If he won and went back to FAL, Pvt Snuffy would still be Pvt Snuffy and muck out the stable. Be Well Dan PS...It feels funny talking to myself. Can you change your name to BOB.. .....Just kidding
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Post by tubman13 on Nov 11, 2016 17:47:54 GMT -6
Pequod,
You chose to bring up this years political campaign elsewhere on the board, recently. Custer's plan worked out as well as the Dem. plan, and it was not shared either. Count governors, house, senate, and state houses. Now look at the Custer battlefield.
Let me save you the time. Ugh!
Regards, Tom
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