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Post by edavids on Feb 29, 2016 15:36:25 GMT -6
Pequod, I think David was thinking, that if we could discuss the battle as well as the minutia we could "double our pleasure and double our fun." Something along those lines. What I have found on these boards is that minutiae tends to either add an interesting element to a discussion or point conversations into useless directions with not much in between. Best, David
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shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Mar 1, 2016 0:45:05 GMT -6
We really are getting sidetracked by minutiae. :-) Mitch Boyer was a pipe smoker. We can tell by an examination of his teeth. Minutiae strikes again.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 1, 2016 5:15:51 GMT -6
Shaw, I like that! Where did it come from, who examined the teeth? HR, other citation? I had heard GAC had 5 testicles, so far can not find proof, only people (hearsay)saying he had a lot of balls! Since this thread has to do with GAC's plan could that be where the plan came from?
Regards, Tom
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Post by edavids on Mar 1, 2016 6:42:41 GMT -6
We really are getting sidetracked by minutiae. :-) Mitch Boyer was a pipe smoker. We can tell by an examination of his teeth. Minutiae strikes again. Perhaps wisps of pipe smoke from atop the bluffs were mistaken for a waving hat?
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Post by edavids on Mar 1, 2016 6:44:11 GMT -6
Shaw, I like that! Where did it come from, who examined the teeth? HR, other citation? I had heard GAC had 5 testicles, so far can not find proof, only people (hearsay)saying he had a lot of balls! Since this thread has to do with GAC's plan could that be where the plan came from? Regards, Tom Perhaps the plan was developed and pulled from a nearby orifice in that region.
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Post by edavids on Mar 1, 2016 9:51:31 GMT -6
edavids, etc.... Gentlemen, Okay, we've managed to reach rock "bottom" with this post; let's elevate the discussion back to the LBH heights, somewhere above 3000'. Pequod At least to 3411
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Post by edavids on Mar 1, 2016 10:12:27 GMT -6
Bringing this (finally) back on topic: Did Custer have a plan? Possibly ideas running through his head but my guess is that all was in flux. Is there any proof of a plan? None that I can find, only educated guesses or otherwise based on real or theoretical actions. Did Custer intend to follow through on supporting Reno's attack in the valley? No one really knows but once Custer turned right and went up the bluffs I surmise that intent became wishful thinking to outright dismissal of intent. I base the latter on Fred's analysis of Ford B which, in theory was a recon of the village with no real intent to attack at that point. Did Benteen have similar orders to attack the village on Reno's left? Despite the LBHA's moderator's claims based on Davern's statements, whatever Lt. Cooke's communication to Major Reno may have been, there is no proof that I have found that any such message was sent much less actually delivered to Benteen. Benteen's post LBH big mouth and boasting does not prove otherwise. Custer's estimation of the NA's fighting ability? Despite his earlier writing about his respect for Indians and defending their way of life; the fact that he permitted 2 civilian relatives and a correspondent to join his battalion speaks volumes to me. He was either very callous or very confident in gaining a major victory with little or no real threat to either Boston Custer or Henry Reed.
IMHO and my 2cents worth.
Best,
David
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Post by dave on Mar 1, 2016 11:02:59 GMT -6
Dr. P. Willey, a Professor of Anthropology at Chico State, Dr. Douglas Scott National Park Service retired and Dr. Melissa A. Connor also with the NationalPark Service, wrote They Died With Custer: Soldiers' Bones from the Battle of the Little Bighorn. They ID Bouyer and noted his teeth wear pattern indicated he was a pipe smoker. If you have not added this dandy to your collection please consider obtaining it. It is available in both paper and Kindle and well worth the cost. Regards Dave
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Post by edavids on Mar 1, 2016 11:39:35 GMT -6
Dr. P. Willey, a Professor of Anthropology at Chico State, Dr. Douglas Scott National Park Service retired and Dr. Melissa A. Connor also with the NationalPark Service, wrote They Died With Custer: Soldiers' Bones from the Battle of the Little Bighorn. They ID Bouyer and noted his teeth wear pattern indicated he was a pipe smoker. If you have not added this dandy to your collection please consider obtaining it. It is available in both paper and Kindle and well worth the cost. Regards Dave Similar findings on thr Friends of the Hunley Website regarding Lt Dixon and the 7 brave souls that died with him on Feb 17, 1864. Interesting human insights stories (including verifying the gold coin that deflected the bullet at Antietam!). Does not clarify exactly what caused The Hunley to sink but does add the human element and history is ultimately about human interaction. Good stuff Dave. Best, David
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 1, 2016 16:09:24 GMT -6
David, As you said we should get back to the theme of the thread. I rarely expound in depth on my opinions, because for the most part, that is what they are. I generally leave the longer dissertation to Montrose or Fred, because as I have admitted to many, I am more of a top line student. Pequod, I open this up to your dissection.
Did Custer have a plan? Yes, I guess he did and no, because he never shared it with his subordinates, those who had to help implement it. He also divided his strength(firepower) before an enemy of uncertain location and size. He did this when he was uncertain of the terrain where he must engage this enemy. Then he subdivided the remaining firepower again.
Custer ordered Reno to attack the camp from the south with one battalion, while he circled around the ridge with the other battalion and hit the Indian village from the north. Based on all previous Indian-soldier encounters, this was a risky, but workable strategy, if it had been shared.
Reno's charge faltered. Instead of attacking straight into the village, Reno halted 200 yards away and formed a skirmish line. And with good reason. Intelligence had estimated a village with 800 warriors, but there were, in fact, more than 2,000. Even with surprise on his side, Reno's 140 men were outmatched and soon forced from the field.
Reno ordered a breakout that soon became a panicked rout. By the time his command got to a safer position, 1/3 of his men were dead. Benteen comes along with Indians still attacking, Reno shattered, and his battalion in chaos, Benteen elected to stay put and help Reno's men. Custer was now on his own.
Probably GAC was not aware of the outcome of Reno's attack, so he continues on the offensive and rode north to attack the village from its northern end. However, by the time he got there(it was the middle), the women and children had fled. GAC had divided his force into two wings. The right wing attempted to hold Calhoun Hill and wait for Benteen, who they assumed would be on his way. Custer led the left wing in search of another ford further north from which he could still capture the noncombatants.
GAC found his ford, but he had too few men to capture the village. Still confident, he turned back to collect the rest of his troops, when he saw collapse of the right wing. So he died with 85 of his men and the remnants of Keogh's command. The final act of this Shakespearian tragedy did not take long. It could have ended differently if a plan had been shared and executed.
Regards, Tom
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Post by edavids on Mar 1, 2016 16:32:03 GMT -6
David, As you said we should get back to the theme of the thread. I rarely expound in depth on my opinions, because for the most part, that is what they are. I generally leave the longer dissertation to Montrose or Fred, because as I have admitted to many, I am more of a top line student. Pequod, I open this up to your dissection. Did Custer have a plan? Yes, I guess he did and no, because he never shared it with his subordinates, those who had to help implement it. He also divided his strength(firepower) before an enemy of uncertain location and size. He did this when he was uncertain of the terrain where he must engage this enemy. Then he subdivided the remaining firepower again. Custer ordered Reno to attack the camp from the south with one battalion, while he circled around the ridge with the other battalion and hit the Indian village from the north. Based on all previous Indian-soldier encounters, this was a risky, but workable strategy, if it had been shared. Reno's charge faltered. Instead of attacking straight into the village, Reno halted 200 yards away and formed a skirmish line. And with good reason. Intelligence had estimated a village with 800 warriors, but there were, in fact, more than 2,000. Even with surprise on his side, Reno's 140 men were outmatched and soon forced from the field. Reno ordered a breakout that soon became a panicked rout. By the time his command got to a safer position, 1/3 of his men were dead. Benteen comes along with Indians still attacking, Reno shattered, and his battalion in chaos, Benteen elected to stay put and help Reno's men. Custer was now on his own. Probably GAC was not aware of the outcome of Reno's attack, so he continues on the offensive and rode north to attack the village from its northern end. However, by the time he got there(it was the middle), the women and children had fled. GAC had divided his force into two wings. The right wing attempted to hold Calhoun Hill and wait for Benteen, who they assumed would be on his way. Custer led the left wing in search of another ford further north from which he could still capture the noncombatants. GAC found his ford, but he had too few men to capture the village. Still confident, he turned back to collect the rest of his troops, when he saw collapse of the right wing. So he died with 85 of his men and the remnants of Keogh's command. The final act of this Shakespearian tragedy did not take long. It could have ended differently if a plan had been shared and executed. Regards, Tom The end came swiftly. Rather than the fight to the last bullet often depicted, nine men tried to escape by horseback heading south, but were cut down. Another 45 tried to break out towards the river or hide in a ravine, but they too were sought out and killed. Custer, flanked by his two loyal brothers, a beloved nephew and some 50 other troopers, was quickly overrun. From shell casings, we know the battle at the end lasted just minutes -- not the long protracted battle of films. Who was to blame? The easiest answer is that Custer didn't lose so much as the Indians won. They had vastly superior numbers, they were fighting for their homes and families and were brilliantly led by chiefs Crazy Horse, Lame White Man and Gall. Certainly, Custer was let down by Reno, who did not press his charge on the village, and by Benteen, who did not "come on," as ordered, to his support. Had Reno and Benteen come forward. they might have suffered the same fate as Custer. However, under the strict guidelines of the 19th Century army, they must take some blame for not following orders, even if those orders led to disaster, and history has been harsh in its judgment of them. Well put Tom and far more detail than I tend to get into. My only minor disagreement is Reno being within 200 yards of the "Village." Unless one considers the thought that there was a small group of tipis on the East bank of LBHR where the river loops. Believe the skirmish line was more like 800 yards from the main Village. Remember as well the "ditch" 300-400 yards to his front. Pequod-much as you did on the LBHA Board you comment on others' posts but I do not see any opinions of your own presented unless I missed them and if that is the case my apologies. I am interested to find out your take on this topic as opposed to being concerned with the meaning of "communication skills". Best, David
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 1, 2016 16:34:25 GMT -6
Pequod,
I had posted that elsewhere and should have finished editing, I just did hope it works.
Regards, Tom
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Post by dave on Mar 1, 2016 16:45:36 GMT -6
Tom Really good post! I agree that Custer had no idea of Reno's situation and had other fish to fry. I am still attempting to understand the purpose of Benteen's jaunt to the SW. Did Custer really believe the hostiles might be fleeing in that direction? If so what was Benteen to accomplish with his small battalion? If he makes contact with overwhelming Indians how is he going to survive except haul his derriere at full speed away? What would this accomplish?
Custer had been told the size of the camps and number of hostiles he would be facing by his Crow scouts yet he deliberately segmented his command in to smaller and smaller units that could not provide mutual support. I am baffled by his actions and would appreciate an explanation as to what Custer was thinking/planning. Regards Dave
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 1, 2016 16:45:49 GMT -6
David, Lighten up on Pequod, I actually attacked him on the associates board regarding Fred's book. Just as Trump and Bernie supporters need someone to move the puck down the ice, sometimes we need someone to move things along. If you want to draw him out ask him a question, then decide upon the opinion not the poster. Wow am I being wishy washy. It won't last long!
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 1, 2016 16:53:54 GMT -6
Tom Really good post! I agree that Custer had no idea of Reno's situation and had other fish to fry. I am still attempting to understand the purpose of Benteen's jaunt to the SW. Did Custer really believe the hostiles might be fleeing in that direction? If so what was Benteen to accomplish with his small battalion? If he makes contact with overwhelming Indians how is he going to survive except haul his derriere at full speed away? What would this accomplish? Custer had been told the size of the camps and number of hostiles he would be facing by his Crow scouts yet he deliberately segmented his command in to smaller and smaller units that could not provide mutual support. I am baffled by his actions and would appreciate an explanation as to what Custer was thinking/planning. Regards Dave Dave,
I have just been as expansive as I ever am, but since it's you. Custer sent Benteen to the left for one of two reasons, or maybe both.
1 To fulfill the letter of his orders to continue feeling to the left, per Terry. 2 To not be caught by satellite camps to his left or rear, as he nearly was at the Washita.
Regards, Tom
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