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Post by fred on Mar 23, 2014 12:51:39 GMT -6
I do not believe we have done this before so I thought-- based on some talks with "Horse" and someone he knows-- it might be a good idea to start a new thread. And you know what? Even if we have beaten this thing to death, we might as well kick the dead horse again. One word of warning or advice: I would like this thread to stay on topic. Diane Merkel is a lovely young woman and at times she and I have had a rather stormy relationship, but I love her dearly. Any stuff intruding on this thread that is off-thread and I will go whimpering to her to delete it, so please be forewarned.
Here we go... a two-part thread:
Did George Custer have a plan? If so, when? If not, why? Support, support, support! We can add in as a corollary, did he ever attack. And there is a catch there: I believe he was almost always on the offensive, up until the very end, but did he actually attack? There is a vast difference.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 23, 2014 13:30:40 GMT -6
Hello Fred.
Yes I think he had a very rudimentary plan, and because he was facing a village full of Indians and not regular troops he kept it very simple, he made up his mind after he left the Crow’s Nest and made his way to the divide, it was a simple plan in such a way that he could afford to detach Benteen and leave part of his force as pack guard, so he broke his advance down to two fighting Battalions and then placed the river between them both (Reno Creek) and moved towards his objective. The only real aspect about his plan up to now was speed, as he thought that the village was or could be about to up sticks.
Now I will leave the next part till somebody else has a go.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 23, 2014 13:37:50 GMT -6
Fred: Second things first. If you believe he was engaged in offensive operations then by that very belief he was in an attack mode. That said, part of the regiment obviously assaulted, but the larger question is was it a coordinated attack, culminating in an assault. To that the answer would have to be no, because a coordinated attack means, again by definition that two or more parts of the whole attacked, and assaulted a single objective complex (subdivided into individual battalion objectives)at or near the same time AND in coordination with one another. There is no evidence at all that the second or any subsequent attacks/assaults were EXECUTED, nor were they even ATTEMPTED. Such is the result of a nonexistent or incomplete reconnaissance to at the very least establish attack objectives. In my opinion Custer with his five companies under immediate command were attempting a hasty reconnaissance, that was intended to transform itself into an immediate assault phase, which may work sometimes but not often.
Did Custer have a plan? I just don't know, nor do I think it can ever be known. It is said no plan survives first contact. That is always true without exception. What is also true is when an attack order is issued, you follow the scheme of maneuver, and no plan CAN survive no communication with subordinate elements if the established plan must be changed or altered for any reason.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 23, 2014 13:57:43 GMT -6
I do not believe we have done this before so I thought-- based on some talks with "Horse" and someone he knows-- it might be a good idea to start a new thread. And you know what? Even if we have beaten this thing to death, we might as well kick the dead horse again. One word of warning or advice: I would like this thread to stay on topic. Diane Merkel is a lovely young woman and at times she and I have had a rather stormy relationship, but I love her dearly. Any stuff intruding on this thread that is off-thread and I will go whimpering to her to delete it, so please be forewarned. Here we go... a two-part thread: If so, when? Support, support, support! We can add in as a corollary, did he ever attack. And there is a catch there: Best wishes, Fred. I will answer this more properly as we go along. And will give you as much support as this jackleg can at the time. I would however like to give you first blush answers to your questions, before I read further.
Did George Custer have a plan? No. Nothing concrete! If not, why? (1) Was not even convinced the Indians were even where he was told at Crows Nest.(2) Lousy scouting, his fault. I believe he was almost always on the offensive, up until the very end, Not after Ford B but did he actually attack? NO. There is a vast difference. I know.
Now I will read further. This will require serious thought and you will yell at me before it is over!
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 23, 2014 14:15:01 GMT -6
often. Did Custer have a plan? I just don't know, nor do I think it can ever be known. It is said no plan survives first contact. That is always true without exception. What is also true is when an attack order is issued, you follow the scheme of maneuver, and no plan CAN survive no communication with subordinate elements if the established plan must be changed or altered for any reason. Bingo, Bingo, and Bingo was it's name! Please bare with me I just re-read the whole RCOI. Steve's fault! I think by the time this is over you will all dislike my opinions. So thanks in advance for the info to plan my trip!
Regards, Tom
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2014 15:06:21 GMT -6
Fred, Here’s my take, fwiw. Did George Custer have a plan?
Yes, as far as getting out of the Army doghouse and debt, he did. He needed something to get back in the papers. That, I think, was an influence on the June 25 actions. As for the 25th of June 1876, Custer had squat for a plan, he wanted a visual to confirm scout info. Likely he got that initially somewhere (3411) on the bluffs above LBH river.
Let’s see:
Hot sunny day, Horses tired (hopefully AZ will correct me about this),
Ground difficult, then he divides his force (drops off Keough and Calhoun) while he rides to get an idea of what to do. Horses condition now?
No plan, no attack.
Support? Bradley's report to Terry about 197 bodies.
Best, c.
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Post by mac on Mar 23, 2014 15:16:59 GMT -6
I am with Ian in that I think the first part of his thinking was that speed was essential as he was operating on the assumption that his opponents were going to scatter as soon as they realised he was coming. I also think that his initial idea was simply a quick assault on the village by Reno and himself along the valley. But as Chuck says it didn't survive past first contact. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Mar 23, 2014 15:58:56 GMT -6
Hell Mac, I don't think the plan, if there was one, made it as far as first contact, unless first contact was a wish and a promise.
Divergent sidebar admittedly: Chris makes a very good point on somewhat of a tangent. We are talking about tactical plan or lack of here, but Custer's previous troubles must have been at least in the back of his mind, and as such had some effect. Knowing that when you burn your bridges in Army politics and use up all you accumulated credits, it is very difficult, if not impossible to redeem one's self, I think this could have been a very real factor in both haste, and his personal insistence he be directly in on the killing blow, and not just exercise normal command and control over the unit as per norm. I understand his proclivities of the past, but LBH seems much more pronounced than the others
Custer was in the attack with the entire regiment from the time he left the divide at least. A movement to contact is an attack. Attacks though have pauses, and they have phases. One element can be actively engaging, while others continue a movement to contact. That said, even something as iffy as thrusting you arm into a barrel must have some sort of preplanning connected with it, and some objective, usually terrain oriented, and finally some points of limitation (we will only go so far and stop). What we see here had none of these aspects about it. It seems more like drifting toward a conclusion than anything else. That is a bad thing. There is one thing though that is readily apparent. The only element that attacked to, and commenced the assault phase was Reno. The rest seemed to be punching with no discernible point of focus..
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Post by mac on Mar 23, 2014 20:13:29 GMT -6
Fair enough Chuck! We have discussed the fact that Custer knew virtually nothing when he formed any plan. I assume Yates and Keogh heading down to the ford with Reno indicates an intention for Custer to follow on on that route. After Reno is in contact this does not happen hence my view that the plan, such as it was, was changed by Custer. The interesting thing is that he still knew no more than before so why change and not follow Reno? Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Mar 23, 2014 22:10:21 GMT -6
Mac: I think a better question might be if Custer felt he needed to change, why did he not inform Reno of the change? The mistake of turning on the bluff would have still been made, a mistake that was irretrievable, but we have no idea how being informed of such a change may have effected Reno's later actions. It is usually an accumulation of these things that lose battles.
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Post by mac on Mar 23, 2014 22:39:34 GMT -6
Yes that is a good question. Certainly easy enough to do at that point I would think. Of course it could be hard for Custer to say exactly what he was going to do since he had no detailed knowledge of where he was going or the disposition of his enemy. Cheers
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 24, 2014 4:07:50 GMT -6
Hi Mac; good to see you back.
Once Custer divided up his Regiment, then he has made a plan, the pack train was organised, Benteen received orders to proceed to the left and Custer formed his advance into two Battalions and rode up Reno Creek, now that to me was a plan.
Now this advance up Reno creek, has all the markings of a two pronged attack, you could say that Custer with the largest Battalion, would be the main assault. Now once they divide and Reno crosses ford A, Custer’s plan of getting around the back of the village takes shape, I mean why else would he do this manoeuvre other than a flank or rear attack, now once he reaches hill 3411 and views Reno in position on the valley floor he has to keep moving, he sends for Benteen because he now knows for sure that this is where the fight is at.
Now this is where his plan goes haywire, he knows he has to get around the flank to make any attack, now he doesn’t know for sure how long this trek is going to take and the time and distance it took him to get to the position he wanted meant that Reno would have to fight alone till he got there, and this period of time was too long for Reno and he received a good shellacking because he got no support.
Now Custer’s plan was in jeopardy because he will face the full fury of the Indians that have left the defeated Reno and gathered to finish off his command.
Ian.
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Post by mac on Mar 24, 2014 6:41:40 GMT -6
Hi Ian I think the salient point is that he doesn't know how long it will take him to go anywhere. As well he doesn't know what he will find "over the hill". I suspect Chuck, montrose, Fred etc will say this is no sort of competent military plan. Nevertheless it would be "a plan". I think brenda's post from another thread would be interesting as part of this discussion especially the evolution of the "plan" to involve the trip north/ further dividing the force. Goodnight. Cheers Mac
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 24, 2014 8:25:42 GMT -6
I agree Mac, Brenda’s post was excellent and some of it could be relevant to this thread, maybe she will pop back later and write another post in this thread.
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 24, 2014 11:30:46 GMT -6
I think we should start with whether Custer had a plan at the Reno separation. That in and of itself was a plan. Reno was to bring running Indians to battle and he would be supported. Not a brilliant tactical plan but a plan nevertheless.
HOWEVER . . . after the separation Custer's plan was a fly-by-night plan. Custer moves downriver not sure what was there. He was like a blind man groping along until he hit a wall (The Indians!) Custer never attacked the Indians . . . the Indians attacked him. He may have made DEFENSIVE plans after that but if Custer ever had a specific offensive plan in mind the Indians disrupted it before he could implement it.
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