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Post by wild on Aug 18, 2018 14:47:42 GMT -6
The answer to all of this lies with the reserve ammo. What possible use was 2000 rounds of carbine ammo to a mounted attack? What was the cost of that useless ammo to Custer ? It was 130 men and at least an hour. It is obvious that Custer was no longer on the offensive .He was thinking defensively now ....high ground and hold for Benteen and ammo . He nearly made it but probably ran into a brick wall on LSH. Cheers Richard
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Post by wild on Aug 18, 2018 16:53:41 GMT -6
Further to the above ; at the point in time when Custer sent Martini back for the reserve ammo a defensive positive result was a possibility for Custer not unlike Reno Hill. It would have sufficed to save face and with some good pr work a victory of sorts.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 19, 2018 4:06:27 GMT -6
Hi Noggy; What if this wait was down to the battalion [all five companies] regrouping on BRE and cemetery ridge after being shot at from the flats near ford D? Read the Cheyenne accounts of this action and how they lay in wait in the benches along the river and opened fire on the soldiers. Hello Yes, I know about your thoughts about the 5 companies moving South; I read on the Centennial Board now and then (hello, QC!) My post was about the separation of the regiment, and how people have a hard time believing GAC would do so, even if he already had done it twice that day. All the best, Noggy I had an idea you visit our site, QC and I only mentioned this point the other day. Steve and Tom who also have a feet on both boards, has been working on how the Custer battalion may have separated or detached a company while it moved down MTC and up to the ridges. army cartridge finds leave a trail which you can see on our maps. So I think that one group followed the Nye-Cartwright ridges and an other Luce ridge. We have also been pondering about his route from the bluffs to MTC and how middle coulee could have been used instead of cedar. A lot of this is down to having good men on the ground and that is what both AZ and TT have done. But I think [and a few of the others] that they all united either before they crossed deep coulee or when the reached the southern end of battle ridge. We are also working on how all five could have reached as far as the flats around ford D and how a lot of action and maneuvering took place east of LSH. But that is just our theory which we have worked on with Indian accounts, mainly the Cheyenne and AZ actually being allowed to visit places which needed Indian permission. We think that a lot went on east and north east of battle ridge and we are always open to fresh ideas and comments from others, if they can back it up and are open to debate.
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Post by wild on Aug 20, 2018 9:41:04 GMT -6
Just in passing..........and for our archaeologists at least 250 GI carbines 250 revolvers and GI ammo were used by the locals all over the battle field . Could it be that some of firing points assumed to be held by troops were in fact held by Indians? Oops
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Post by wild on Aug 20, 2018 16:24:13 GMT -6
The initiative can only be maintained while in contact enemy by the application of pressure on said enemy .No such tactic was attempted by Custer and indeed he had not the forces to attempt such. In fact he did the opposite by passing up the chance to attack across the river at ford B and withdrawing and thus inviting an attack upon himself which was duely dilivered. Logic, forces, terrain, time , dictated that if he (Custer) wished to maintain his position on the flank of the village he must adopt the defensive. He had to know that he could not expect Benteen and packs to arrive for another 2 hours. The sandtablers and maneuverists use this two hours to conjure up the most fantastical scenarios while ignoring the limiting factors of heat, blood, terror, terrain,distance, time, All of which favoured the enemy . Custer had maybe 15 minutes after Martini departed before the Indians were upon him and his tired weary strung out command. To maintain some relevance to the above subject ; Keogh was but a victim of blunder not of his making. Cheers Richard
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Post by noggy on Aug 21, 2018 4:14:22 GMT -6
Hello Yes, I know about your thoughts about the 5 companies moving South; I read on the Centennial Board now and then (hello, QC!) My post was about the separation of the regiment, and how people have a hard time believing GAC would do so, even if he already had done it twice that day. All the best, Noggy I had an idea you visit our site, QC and I only mentioned this point the other day. Steve and Tom who also have a feet on both boards, has been working on how the Custer battalion may have separated or detached a company while it moved down MTC and up to the ridges. army cartridge finds leave a trail which you can see on our maps. So I think that one group followed the Nye-Cartwright ridges and an other Luce ridge. We have also been pondering about his route from the bluffs to MTC and how middle coulee could have been used instead of cedar. A lot of this is down to having good men on the ground and that is what both AZ and TT have done. But I think [and a few of the others] that they all united either before they crossed deep coulee or when the reached the southern end of battle ridge. We are also working on how all five could have reached as far as the flats around ford D and how a lot of action and maneuvering took place east of LSH. But that is just our theory which we have worked on with Indian accounts, mainly the Cheyenne and AZ actually being allowed to visit places which needed Indian permission. We think that a lot went on east and north east of battle ridge and we are always open to fresh ideas and comments from others, if they can back it up and are open to debate. I read all over the internet Personally, I don`t feel any ownership to the battle itself and have no problem with people exploring different theories than usually accepted, or having different opinions. The only thing I from experience know might be difficult, is to not be so (in lack of a better phrase) in love with new thoughts and ideas that one tries to "force" existing facts and testimonies to fit the new bill. If the work you guys do on the North-South stuff materializes into something that`s published I`d surely give it a read. All the best, Noggy
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Post by wild on Aug 21, 2018 10:48:25 GMT -6
Has anyone read "The Fights on the Little Horn" by Gordon Harper late of this parish. I see he has Custer retreating in some confusion (all 5 companies )and absent control from an aborted advance on Ford D.
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 21, 2018 13:54:38 GMT -6
The theory N/S is as good as the traditional, in that there is no survivor of the Custer engagement, that spoke much english. Second and third person accounts abound. And, here is some food for thought from Benteen, who in this statement agrees with Godfrey.
This comes from the E.A. Brininstool book Troopers With Custer published in 1957,Chapter - "Benteen's Own Story" page 61 "I think Custer went to the right of the second divide and not to the river at all. On the morning of General Terry’s arrival, I asked permission to take my company and go over the battlefield of General Custer. I did so, and followed down the gorge [Medicine Tail Coulee]; but I am now satisfied that he did not go down that way. The nearest body to the middle ford was six or eight hundred yards from it. “I went over the battlefield carefully, with a view to determine how the fight was fought. I arrived at the conclusion I have right now—that it was a rout, a panic, til the last man was killed "
Regards, Tom
PS Richard, I know you don't like the guy, I am just reporting what I read years back. Had to dig out the book.
This chapter is composed of excerpts from the RCOI and his letters to Golden. Brininstool bought those letters.
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Post by wild on Aug 21, 2018 15:04:49 GMT -6
Roger that Tom thanks. Richard
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dale
New Member
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Posts: 6
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Post by dale on Sept 2, 2018 20:42:47 GMT -6
What if GAC received too many wounds to continue!? Wouldn't his men surround him and attempt to protect him until reinforcements arrived? They would most certainly exhaust all ammo doing so! Protect until he's dead and then it's every man for himself and I saw evidence that men did try to hide in the gullies in small bands. They didn't have many expended shells around them to prove that was a defensive position. Just a thought!
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dale
New Member
Veteran
Posts: 6
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Post by dale on Sept 2, 2018 20:46:40 GMT -6
That was most likely already brought up but I didn't feel like reading all 76 pages so I've skimmed over the discussion. Sorry for butting in guys! It's a great topic! I love going to the BH site every chance I go by heading west and I enjoy visiting the museum out here at Fort Meade.
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Post by montrose on Nov 1, 2018 16:40:55 GMT -6
I see Keough's actions being raised by a new member. Please read the first few posts in this thread.
CPT Keough's decisions and judgements played a major role in what happened on Battle Ridge. He acted only as a company commander, when he was a battalion commander responsible for 3 companies. He failed, and badly.
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Post by Colt45 on Nov 1, 2018 19:56:26 GMT -6
Montrose, What evidence do we have that shows Keogh was in fact a battalion commander? I am not aware of any that definitely establishes that he was a battalion commander after Custer went up the bluffs. If there is some, please point me toward it. If he was a battalion commander in charge of C, F, and I, then I agree that he totally screwed the pooch.
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Post by tubman13 on Nov 3, 2018 7:39:32 GMT -6
Great point Colt, I might also ask when did Tom Custer leave his company, after or before he dispatched Kanipe?
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Post by wild on Dec 22, 2018 14:30:42 GMT -6
Circumstantial evidence would indicate that Keogh was commanding a battalion at fall of curtain. A Senior officer was required further back the line of march for command and control purposes. The command is split at Keogh's position. Custer had already detached 2 battalions of 3 companies. Keogh's position formed a rallying point for survivors of the other companies. And all the best theories are based on Keogh having a battalion command.
Festive greetings to all my old friends. Best Regards Richard
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