|
Post by montrose on Jul 12, 2011 6:18:44 GMT -6
1. Purpose. Discuss command, control, and decision making by CPT Keough.
2. Situation. The Keough battalion deployed on the southern end of Battle Ridge. L Company was the main effort of the unit. It was on Calhoun Hill facing south. C Company was on their right flank facing west. I Company was in reserve a considerable distance to the northeast, over the crest of the ridge in a swale.
3. Command Post. CPT Keough was found with his company headquarters element in the swale. He was not in position to properly execute command and control of Companies C and L.
4. I Company disposition. I Co was overrun while still in Bn reserve. The unit was never committed to answer the numerous enemy counterattacks.
5. C Company attack. The C CO attack led to the collapse of the US defense and the annihilation of the Bn. The attack went too far, which is not unusual in cavalry attacks.
a. BN Commander should have supervised this attack. He should have been on Calhoun Hill, or accompanied the attack.
b. A local counterattack is actually the job of the reserve. I Company should have conducted this attack. This leaves C Co still in position to react to Lame White Man's counterattack into the gaping hole left by C Company.
c. Because Keough was so far away, sending a messenger for permission would cost time. CPT Keough was so far away that a lone messenger may not be able to get there and back. Crazy Horse and others were conducting bravery runs between the gap between the fighting companies and the reserve.
6. The Keough Bn fought as 3 companies. There is a distinct absence of anyone executing the functions of battalion command and control.
a. Reno gets ravaged for his decisions. Yet ever since being designated as advance guard, he clearly was managing his 3 companies and issues a variety of orders. Keough seems more like a deer caught in the headlights of an oncoming car (Jeep Cherokee?). As conditions changed on the south end of Battle Ridge, he was trapped in inertia and failed to respond.
b. A more competent commander would have organized a coherent all round defense as enemy forces surrounded his position. Indian attacks that swept the position came through both of the gaps between the reserve and the main line of resistance. Crazy Horse and crew from SW, Lame White Man and crew from NE.
c. The errors made meant that US forces collapsed faster than they should have, and inflicted less casualties. The argument that regimental forces should have moved faster in the south ignores the poor defense on Battle Ridge.
7. Summary. Would a more coherent defense on south Battle Ridge have made a difference?
Why does Keough not get the same scrutiny for his performance as Custer, Reno, and Benteen?
v/r
William
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 12, 2011 7:07:32 GMT -6
Hi Montrose, I have said in other posts about the domino effect caused by the collapse of this wing, this flank guard was too spaced out, and I think they were either waiting for Benteen or further orders from Custer, either way it over run and the panic it spread over followed onto Custer's wing with men running for there lives, now I don't know the ins and outs yet over the actual battle, but there must have been a flaw somewhere in Keogh's defense strategy, and the Indians had the key to unlock it and they did. Regards Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jul 12, 2011 9:09:02 GMT -6
Montrose: I think the answer to your question must be yes, it would have made a difference in the amount of time they defended, but not the outcome. Having all five companies there is the only possible game changer I can see.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 12, 2011 9:17:02 GMT -6
Yes Chuck, I agree over the five Companies staying united, they should have attack together or defended together, having said that I also agree that the outcome would have been the same, if no Benteen turns up, then they would have just been worn down by the amount of Indians returning from the Reno fight, as time went by the Hostiles got stronger and more aggressive, best resort was to sweep the village and get out. Regards Ian.
|
|
Reddirt
Full Member
Life is But a Dream...
Posts: 208
|
Post by Reddirt on Aug 9, 2011 11:35:56 GMT -6
Reference the theory that Montrose proffered ( Keogh received a "free ride" from scrutiny that others received) I have the following to offer.
Despite an exemplary military record imbued with reports of bravery and gallantry, Keogh was not a "main player" in the cast of characters at the battle of the Little Big Horn. Therefore, rightly or wrongly his actions in the battle did not receive the same scrutiny as his superiors.
In the game of someone must be at fault played by the critics since the start of war, those who aspire to lead must accept responsibility for the outcome. In other words, the fate of Keogh and his men must fall under the category of "couldn't be helped" as his actions were the direct result of the decisions of his superior, General Custer.
When Keogh's situation became critical, efforts to extricate his command from danger were already futile.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 10, 2011 2:51:32 GMT -6
But maybe Keogh was not with I Company when the Indians got behind L Coy, he could have been on a high point after ordering C Coy to attack, and when both C & L Coys started to collapse, he then got back to I Coy to deploy them when the Indians came over the ridge and poured fire into there ranks, causing such a panic that they could not deploy and every thing went out of control, just a theory. Going back to Keogh's wing deployment, even if they all took up defensive positions and supported each other, I think it was only a matter of time before there ammo would have started to run low (60 rifle rounds per man maximum) and the Indians would have worn them down enough to over run them, some people say that they should have held out like Reno, but Reno had a better position, more men, and the ammo from the pack train. Regards Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Aug 10, 2011 9:40:21 GMT -6
Ian: When a unit of any size suffers defeat on a battlefield, there is only one person who can be held responsible. That person at Little Big Horn was Custer, for it is always the commander who is responsible - always. Keogh may have made tactical errors as well, and were he operating alone it would be he who must shoulder the blame. He was not. He was put there, ordered there, or was there thinking that he was assisting Custer in execution of the overall plan, if indeed one existed.
That is really the problem here. We don't know enough about what happed to make judgments as to the culpability of Keogh, if any. We do know enough to place responsability on Custer's shoulders, for first taking his men into a buzzsaw, and secondly failing to extract them.
I think Custer is as far down the chain as we can possibly go without finding new evidence, and there is scant chance of that.
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Aug 10, 2011 12:23:50 GMT -6
That is really the problem here. We don't know enough about what happed to make judgments as to the culpability of Keogh, if any.quote] Ian, This statement sums it up perfectly. We cannot credit him or discredit him since we have no idea of what he did or didn't do. All we know is where he died Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 10, 2011 12:53:58 GMT -6
I know what you guys are saying, and it is right, there is no new evidence over Keogh, I also agree with you Chuck over the buck stops with Custer, but I only posted this to answer what Montrose was saying about what made Keogh not deploy his Company, it was just a theory, if Keogh was a the commander people say he is then he would have been observing the battle, and maybe not with his Company, I wonder who gave C Coy the order to attack the Indians in the Coulee if Keogh could not see anything. Ian.
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Aug 10, 2011 13:40:33 GMT -6
[quote author=yantaylor board=theories thread=3983 post=73821 time=1313002438 , I wonder who gave C Coy the order to attack the Indians in the Coulee if Keogh could not see anything. Ian.[/quote]
Ian,
This is one of those questions we will never know. It could have been Custer, Keogh, or maybe LT Harrington did it on his own, being inexperienced he rode right into a trap. Perhaps if Tom was leading C Company it would not have happened this way.Any theory,thought, or opinion could be just as correct as any other.
Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Aug 10, 2011 13:48:40 GMT -6
Ian: I have no trouble with the idea that Keogh was probably not with his company during the first part of the engagement. It would not be proper for him to be there in his role of the squadron commander. We don't know where his company was either. We only know where most of them died. Keoghs job would to be to supervise the entire postion. I assume he was competent. So I assume that is what he did, and further would place himself in a postion where he could accomplish that
As to who gave the order for C Company to advance, if in fact advance is what they did, who knows. We presume it to be Keogh. It could have been Harrington with some wild hare up his butt. I am just contrary enough took keep in the back of my mind the possability that Company C was always down in the FF Ridge area, that there was no counterattack, and that Dan and Richard are spot on that it was a route from about the time Custer peeked into MTC Ford.. I repeat the word possible here before Fred hands me my head.
|
|
|
Post by rosebud on Aug 10, 2011 15:28:56 GMT -6
Dan and Richard are spot on that it was a route from about the time Custer peeked into MTC Ford
I sure don't agree with that statement. Reno and Benteen did not hold a company in reserve when they were going into their defensive position. Every company was deployed as soon and efficiently as they thought possible.
Custer enters the battlefield about Calhoun hill. Or if some of you want to have him enter at MTC, thats fine. If he was on the defensive, he (or they) would have no need to hold a company in reserve.
Now to me it looks like Custer is setting up a shooting gallery and trying to hold the Indians below the ridge.
All I am trying to say is....Custer was still on the offensive when Calhoun was dropped off. I don't think they were in that bad of a position ...PROVIDED... No Indians can get them from the hills on the East...............That is exactly what the Indians did that returned from Reno hill. They got in the rear, and that in turn opened MTC ford up for more Indians to cross and NOW the advantage is all in the favor of the Indians.
Benteen is coming to help either Reno or Custer. There should be no way they need to worry about Indians from the East.
Rosebud
|
|
|
Post by fred on Aug 10, 2011 16:03:11 GMT -6
Rosie, my boy!
You are full of beans with some of the hoo-hah you have posted-- at least in my opinion-- but this last post of yours is spot-on perfect... with the caveat, if I understand it correctly. And if I do, I think you have nailed this part of the deal perfectly.
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Aug 10, 2011 16:13:14 GMT -6
Rosebud: No, I am not suggesting that I am dug into any position on this battle. There is still so much more I want to learn. And yes, I think it is highly possible that Calhoun was there for just the reasons your suggest, which if Custer is still intent on offensive action makes all kinds of sense.
What has never made any sense to me is moving Company C off that ridge to counterattack, unless somehow they were snookered into it. Dan and Richard have long believed that Custer was on the run and defeated in detail because he was hit immediately down in the MTC, or MTC Ford area somewhere. Thus the positions we now see is where each of the companies were run to ground. Now neither of them are here at present, so if I have mis-stated their positions then they will let boith of us know. The only reason I mention this is that it would be an alternative to conventional wisdom theory of how a large portion of C ended up on FF Ridge.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Aug 10, 2011 20:06:53 GMT -6
I think it is highly possible that Calhoun was there for just the reasons you suggest, which if Custer is still intent on offensive action makes all kinds of sense. It is my opinion this was the situation; there was, however, more to it than just a lack of Indians. I think this is precisely why C Company left the ridge. I believe it was a combination of a couple of things. There was no organized, mounted opposition, and the Indians' method of fighting and maneuver made it extremely difficult for Keogh to estimate correctly what he was up against. One thing he could realize, however, was that enough Indians had infiltrated on foot and had gotten close enough to threaten the held horses. I believe he sent Harrington into the coulee to roust them out... after that, I don't know for certain. If I am not mistaken, I have a couple of quotes from Indian participants that claim the C Company men dismounted in the coulee.... But I am not positive. I do not agree. It is my opinion C Company got to FF Ridge for the same reason I Company was found mostly at the bottom of Battle Ridge: they were driven there. Remember the configuration of Calhoun Coulee. While a lot of Indians were crossing Ford B, a good number of those warriors moved into the cover of Deep Coulee proper. Some, of course, came along Greasy Grass Ridge and into Calhoun Coulee. Many however, were crossing at Deep Ravine and while that ravine afforded a lot of cover, it wasn't particularly wide and at this stage of the battle, Deep Ravine was used mainly by the warriors following Crazy Horse (speculative, but eminently reasonable). Deep Ravine's lower area also led into Calhoun Coulee and any Indians attacking C Company from that area would have assaulted C's right, thus driving them in the opposite direction: Finley - Finckle Ridge. High ground, of course, would represent "safety," however fleeting, however illusionary. From FF Ridge, the next representation of safety would be Calhoun Hill... and from there, the Keogh Sector. FF Ridge represented not safety, but a trap. It was indefensible; narrow, and open to three sides of attack, all three being routes of advance for the Indians. It was a death trap. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|