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Post by wild on Aug 10, 2011 23:31:51 GMT -6
Hi Cathal,Fred and friends. Just back from holidays. Cathal you have stated my views exactly.
William's introductary piece on Keogh combines two dynamics ie cohesion and incompetance. Fred suggests cohesion followed by collaspe. I'm suggesting collaspe alone because neither the Custer nor Keogh platoons' ["battalion"is a gross distorton]final positions exhibition anything other than that. Complex scenarios are required to assist the morphing of cohesion into rout.Not only is it required to cover the overall position it is required for the individual Custer/Keogh positions. I'll just add in response to Fred's observation on the Indians seeking cover.40 Muskets firing from an exposed position,covering an arc of what?Pick a number 180 degrees?Will produce what is known as desultory fire and against an oncoming tide of certain death is as effective as pissing against the wind.
My holiday took me to small island off the East Coast of the US--Inis Oirr pop 280.Enjoyed Irish traditional music and brushed up on my Gaelic.Met many tourists from all over the world.But I have to say that for friendlyness warmth charm and manners I was most impressed with a mixed group of young American students who were researching Irish history.Great young ambassadors for Uncle Sam.
Regards
PS.At a time when much space has been given over to the antics of a pair of shysters on the other board an example of decency and quiet courage goes unnoticed. Fred's use of "I'm changing my mind"and "I'm not certain"is about as couragious as you can get on these boards. Curtais generalta Fred.Hope you are doing well.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 11, 2011 3:23:19 GMT -6
Hi Wild, thought you may have been away, with not seeing any of your replies, is there any truth in the fact that some of C Company fought on foot, you hear stories on the other board about some of C Companies horses being with Calhoun's horses, but I can't see why Harrington would have split his troop into two with a portion mounted and another on foot, but like every thing else about this battle we cannot say for sure and would that tactic of having say 15 men mounted and 15 men on foot make any sense, I wonder what happend to the horses of the two Sgts who where found dead on FF Ridge. Regards Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 11, 2011 8:14:23 GMT -6
Welcome back Richard. I think you meant Inis Oirr off the coast of Ireland. It is e fairly long swim from the coast of the US.
Glad I summed up your position correctly.
PM me and I will get you cought up in all the goings on.
Cathal
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Post by bc on Aug 11, 2011 13:45:44 GMT -6
I think it is highly possible that Calhoun was there for just the reasons you suggest, which if Custer is still intent on offensive action makes all kinds of sense. It is my opinion this was the situation; there was, however, more to it than just a lack of Indians. I think this is precisely why C Company left the ridge. I believe it was a combination of a couple of things. There was no organized, mounted opposition, and the Indians' method of fighting and maneuver made it extremely difficult for Keogh to estimate correctly what he was up against. One thing he could realize, however, was that enough Indians had infiltrated on foot and had gotten close enough to threaten the held horses. I believe he sent Harrington into the coulee to roust them out... after that, I don't know for certain. If I am not mistaken, I have a couple of quotes from Indian participants that claim the C Company men dismounted in the coulee.... But I am not positive. I do not agree. It is my opinion C Company got to FF Ridge for the same reason I Company was found mostly at the bottom of Battle Ridge: they were driven there. Remember the configuration of Calhoun Coulee. While a lot of Indians were crossing Ford B, a good number of those warriors moved into the cover of Deep Coulee proper. Some, of course, came along Greasy Grass Ridge and into Calhoun Coulee. Many however, were crossing at Deep Ravine and while that ravine afforded a lot of cover, it wasn't particularly wide and at this stage of the battle, Deep Ravine was used mainly by the warriors following Crazy Horse (speculative, but eminently reasonable). Deep Ravine's lower area also led into Calhoun Coulee and any Indians attacking C Company from that area would have assaulted C's right, thus driving them in the opposite direction: Finley - Finckle Ridge. High ground, of course, would represent "safety," however fleeting, however illusionary. From FF Ridge, the next representation of safety would be Calhoun Hill... and from there, the Keogh Sector. FF Ridge represented not safety, but a trap. It was indefensible; narrow, and open to three sides of attack, all three being routes of advance for the Indians. It was a death trap. Best wishes, Fred. Deep Ravine is the roadway to Calhoun Coulee and LSH. Any move by C troop down towards Calhoun Coulee and on over to F/F ridge would require the other side of the road to be moved against as well to avoid everyone being flanked and/or divided. The E troop move to Deep Ravine does just that. Once E troop moved to Deep Ravine, their backside was exposed to the suicide boys and others coming up from the D fords. Which would then require a presense on Cemetery Ridge and the so called west skirmish line to keep the Cheyenne's off the back of E. Charging an encroaching enemy who have encroached within arrow and rifle range is a standard tactic. Even used by Benteen on the 26th. However with such a large defensive area, the Custer wing was too spread out. Particularly against such large numbers of NAs who still had ar rough and undulating terrain to hide them no matter how far any troops tried to drive them. Deep Ravine was like the Falaise Gap once Lame White Man broke through. And the above is applicable whether or not they were driven from or intentially planned a move from MTC. bc
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Post by quincannon on Aug 11, 2011 15:09:09 GMT -6
Britt: Don't get the Falaise Gap reference. Fulda or Hof Gaps maybe?
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Post by benteen on Aug 11, 2011 16:29:13 GMT -6
brittles,
Colonel, as to expressing my views add my name to Richards post. it is exactly what i was going to say, only he got home in time to say it for me ;D
Richard glad you had a good time, welcome home
Be Well Dan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 12, 2011 8:35:17 GMT -6
If Custer was Driven back from MTC, and he had been told about Reno's retreat, why did he carry on with the job of capturing the village, I know that he thought that Benteen was coming up behind because Boston Custer passed the last courier, and the way was still clear, I wonder what made him split up his command instead of waiting for Benteen and more ammo, before he made his next move, if he was forced onto Calhoun Ridge, then he must have had a good idea that he had been spotted and knowing that Reno was in retreat, that the Indians would turn against him. All of this is only speculative on my part, I like this area of the battle, because it was when the tide turned against Custer, and as we all know, there was no survivors to tell what Custer was really up to. Ian.
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Post by wild on Aug 12, 2011 8:45:15 GMT -6
Hurrah there Dan.Thanks for the good wishes.
Ian is there any truth in the fact that some of C Company fought on foot, Unless they were fugitives from Buffalo Bill's Wild West circus they were helpless while mounted.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 12, 2011 8:47:48 GMT -6
Thanks Wild, was they cut up in one of the many buffalo hunts that took place.
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Post by wild on Aug 12, 2011 9:25:44 GMT -6
Ian There have been battles where the actions of whole corps have been disputed. Take Stonewall Jackson's behavior at the first battle of Bull Run.The popular view is that he got his monicar because of a gallant stand turning the tide of the battle.Others hold that he was rooted to the ground incapable of doing aything. Whos to know? I have seen people here describe the maneuvers of fragments of companies.All spectulation. I have no idea of the last moments of individual troops. I imagine a tsunami of howling death pouring out of the village.I imagine Custer racing for LSH.Keogh unable to close up before the tide hits and his rearward comanies fighting where they halted.
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Post by rosebud on Aug 16, 2011 13:27:49 GMT -6
If Custer was Driven back from MTC, and he had been told about Reno's retreat, why did he carry on with the job of capturing the village, I know that he thought that Benteen was coming up behind because Boston Custer passed the last courier, and the way was still clear, I wonder what made him split up his command instead of waiting for Benteen and more ammo, before he made his next move, if he was forced onto Calhoun Ridge, then he must have had a good idea that he had been spotted and knowing that Reno was in retreat, that the Indians would turn against him. All of this is only speculative on my part, I like this area of the battle, because it was when the tide turned against Custer, and as we all know, there was no survivors to tell what Custer was really up to. Ian
Your problem starts with.....If Custer was Driven back from MTC.......
When you look at all the evidence you should be able to get past this problem and the pieces of the puzzle will fall into place. But go ahead and listen to Clair and Keogh on the other board and beat your head against the wall.
Many want to have Custer attempting a crossing at MTC ford. That is the biggest farce ever made about the LBH. Try as you might...You too will fail.
happy hunting Rosebud
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 17, 2011 3:46:10 GMT -6
Rosebud, I have never said that Custer tried to cross down MTC, I always say that he sent E Coy down for a recce and the HQ + F Coy remained behind on a hill to observe. I don't think Custer ever intended to cross, because why try to capture a big village, with one Company only, like I said Custer and F Coy where back on a hill and Keogh's wing where all the way back to rear. Yan.
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jag
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Post by jag on Aug 17, 2011 6:58:31 GMT -6
Rosebud, I have never said that Custer tried to cross down MTC, I always say that he sent E Coy down for a recce and the HQ + F Coy remained behind on a hill to observe. I don't think Custer ever intended to cross, because why try to capture a big village, with one Company only, like I said Custer and F Coy where back on a hill and Keogh's wing where all the way back to rear. Yan. I always say that he sent E Coy down for a recce and the HQ + F Coy remained behind on a hill to observe.And pray tell, where does all of this information come from? This would be your 2nd mistake. If it's Curly you're relying upon, don't count upon it, because he never put it with such clarity as you did. He never stated where the white horse troop went to or for what reason. Hill? what hill, where? That was never stated with any certainty either. His statements read like the who's who of ravines, valleys, flora, fauna, coulee's of numerous directions leading into canyons unknown, of which more than one led to the LBH, choose one and hope for the best?
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 17, 2011 7:04:57 GMT -6
Did the Indians say that the Grey horse troop went to the ford ?. or is there any evidence to say that the whole command tried to cross ?, was Custer at the ford ?. where was Keogh ?, was he also there with his wing trying to cross also.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 17, 2011 7:36:32 GMT -6
How's ye olde reading program coming, yantaylor? Willing to make any effort at all?
Do you have any idea how much distance would be absorbed by five companies in fours? In twos? Since there are no witnesses who spoke English to what happened after Custer headed north, how can your questions be answered beyond "we cannot know?" Huh? Huh?
Find the "huh?", "huh?" irritating and somewhat demanding from someone who has no right to be? You do? Do ya? Huh? Huh?
One of Curley's stories has the command stopped to adjust saddles before heading down into what is assumed to be Cedar Coulee into MTC. That's evidence. Whether it is reliable or true isn't known, nor can it be.
It is difficult to pretend Custer would pass MTC if he intended to get into the village to support Reno or, later, initiate a separate action. If, as is commonly assumed, he thought the village was divested of warriors or if he wanted to get civvies or if he wanted to get the ponies or if he wanted to fight Indians, that would be the way to achieve it. That's because shock and speed are the advantages of cavalry. Otherwise, cavalry is an easy target on attractive vehicles.
Parading in full view to a more northern crossing where any attempt to be made would be easily rebuffed - and especially with only one or two companies - is a move that struggles to find logic.
So while there is no specific evidence to Custer's intent, there is a certain logic that finds an attack at MTCF attractive. But we cannot know. He didn't get all that far down MTC, and the snake of companies following behind - and you've measured out how far the snake would extend, right? Huh? Huh? - would mean Keogh's battalion would would be where on the map?
Huh? Huh?
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