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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 22, 2018 14:43:16 GMT -6
Merry Christmas Wild
AZ Ranger
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Post by Colt45 on Dec 22, 2018 15:32:05 GMT -6
Whether or not Keogh was a battalion commander is pure speculation on all our parts, as there is no way to know for certain. The way the companies were found would indicate they fought as individual companies, most likely due to a withdrawal maneuver that never got completed.
It is possible Custer put Keogh in charge of 3 companies for the purpose withdrawing from the ford D area back toward Reno, and his company was the last to depart the area while E and F were attempting to cover the withdrawal. Given the hostile confrontation in the area of ford D, withdrawing under fire would have been the most prudent course of action. The cavalry didn't know the hostile buildup had cut off the retreat path back to the south, hence they died where they did.
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Post by wild on Dec 22, 2018 18:58:27 GMT -6
Colt 45 Circumstances can be used in evidence, speculation cannot. You cannot counter circumstantial evidence by the use of speculation. As you have done. The chain of command for the Custer wing was through the captains ,not through the 5 individual company cos. Best Richard
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Post by noggy on Dec 23, 2018 5:10:53 GMT -6
The chain of command for the Custer wing was through the captains ,not through the 5 individual company cos. GAC even gave his probably two least persons command over a Battalion. Rank and service time considered, Keogh would be the obvious third Battalion commander. Merry Christmas, and beware the one inch of snow I always hear cause all sorts of trouble on the Isle! Noggy
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Post by tubman13 on Dec 23, 2018 5:45:57 GMT -6
Merry Christmas and Good Speculation to all! Always good to hear from you Wild. Where have you been, away in a manger or on an extended pub crawl on the Emerald Isle?
Regards, Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 23, 2018 8:10:05 GMT -6
Colt 45 Circumstances can be used in evidence, speculation cannot. You cannot counter circumstantial evidence by the use of speculation. As you have done. The chain of command for the Custer wing was through the captains ,not through the 5 individual company cos. Best Richard Wild Company Commanders should be Captains but sometimes they are acting. Custer was acting as the Regiment commander which is a Col. position. Battalion commanders should be Majors but Custer had only one with him so Benteen was acting as a major. I think you can counter circumstantial evidence interpretations with expert opinion. Colt 45 would qualify as an expert witness with his background as an Army officer and law enforcement background. I have testified as an expert witness and my opinion was allowed in court. So the only question is the credentials and as U S Cavalry officer then Colt would qualify. I believe it is the same reason that soldiers can testify to opinion. I think Custer was acting as a Colonel regimental commander. I think Benteen would be acting as Major as a battalion commander. Custer had three Captains with him and two of the companies had 1stLt.s acting as Captains. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by wild on Dec 23, 2018 12:57:41 GMT -6
Hi AZ Colt is speaking of pure speculation, unencumbered with limiting evidence. I have listed a number of known undisputed circumstances which supports the probability of Keogh being a battalion commander. This would outweigh any amount of unsupported pure speculation regardless of the expertise of the source. Best Richard
As regards the old sod being brought to a halt by a dusting of snow, I read that the mighty US has been brought to a halt by a non existent wall. Best R
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Post by wild on Dec 23, 2018 13:05:55 GMT -6
Further AZ Battalions were adhoc formations of various units . The COs of these units did not act up but maintained their permanent rank. Benteen was not acting major. Cheers
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Post by noggy on Dec 23, 2018 13:13:44 GMT -6
As regards the old sod being brought to a halt by a dusting of snow, I read that the mighty US has been brought to a halt by a non existent wall. Best R I`m used to snow lying higher than I`m tall during winter, but we do not have any walls as of today. Only paywalls. All the best, Noggy
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Post by Yan Taylor on Dec 23, 2018 15:24:41 GMT -6
Cast your mind back to what Custer heard from his scouts earlier in the piece. Custer and his scouts saw dust clouds in the valley and was told by these men that this was the Indian camp on the move. Custer then went at speed over the bluffs and when he reached the MTC region he would have saw that this dust cloud was further north then he expected so he headed north to head it off because that was always his greatest fear, that the village would scatter and escape.
This could be why he left ford B alone as it was no use to him, so why would he then form battalions, he was in too much of a hurry to do this. Custer was progressing at speed and had no time to reorganize. The officers who survived all said that only three battalions where formed, Custer's, Benteen's and Reno's, no evidence at all about Keogh commanding one.
Keogh was command his own company, the company in which he died, like Calhoun [L Coy] and Harrington [C Coy] did, the fact that men from these companies were found around him is because they were running away and crashed into 'I' Company.
All the best and merry Christmas Yan.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 23, 2018 16:31:23 GMT -6
I quote Lt. Wallace from his report included at page 1378 of the 'Annual report of the Chief of Engineers to the Secretary of War for the year 1877, v2' ' At 12m on the 25th, we crossed the divide between the Rosebud and Little Big Horn. From the divide could be seen the valley of the Little Big Horti, and about 15 or 20 miles to the northwest could be seen a light blue cloud, and to practiced eyes showed that our game was near.' Source
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Post by Colt45 on Dec 23, 2018 17:14:40 GMT -6
Wild, What evidence do you have that shows Keogh was commanding a battalion after Custer separated from Reno?
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Post by wild on Dec 24, 2018 9:22:00 GMT -6
Circumstantial evidence Colt and military logic.
Custer is going forward into contact with the enemy. The command will stretch out over 1km . To control the rearward units he needs a senior offer to take tactical responsibility . He also, if he intends to charge , to have a second reserve line. Keogh's battalion would perform this task.
The markers indicate two separate wings.They show a separation between Custer and Keogh' positions. If there had been no seperation the markers would show a much greater and closer concentration closer to LSH than the actual configuration . For the rearward units it was Keogh who gave the order to dismount and form skirmish line.
Best Richard
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Post by benteen on Dec 24, 2018 17:09:48 GMT -6
Wild, What evidence do you have that shows Keogh was commanding a battalion after Custer separated from Reno? Colt, Sir, I cant find my Bible (RCOI) but I posted once before that 2 Captains testified at the RCOI that they were present when Custer gave Battalion assignments they were as follows, Reno- M A G Benteen- DHK Keogh-CIL Yates- EF Now I am not going to say that this is proof positive, but unless someone can tell me why 2 Officers would make that up, I am of the belief that is what Custer did. Merry Christmas Be Well Dan
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Post by benteen on Dec 24, 2018 17:10:33 GMT -6
Richard,
Good to see you again my old friend.
Merry Christmas
Be Well
Dan
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