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Post by noggy on Dec 24, 2018 21:20:06 GMT -6
Wild, What evidence do you have that shows Keogh was commanding a battalion after Custer separated from Reno? Colt, Sir, I cant find my Bible (RCOI) but I posted once before that 2 Captains testified at the RCOI that they were present when Custer gave Battalion assignments they were as follows, Reno- M A G Benteen- DHK Keogh-CIL Yates- EF Now I am not going to say that this is proof positive, but unless someone can tell me why 2 Officers would make that up, I am of the belief that is what Custer did. Merry Christmas Be Well Dan I`m thinking that if one believes the North-South flow of battle, then a Battalion commander role for Keogh does not makes sense. For those who think Custer left the 3 companies and then went North, Keogh being the Right Wings overall commander is more than probable. I too have a vague memory of the assignments you mention. I guess things depend on how one view the flow of battle. I for one think Keogh by rank had the (in theory) command over the the companies. He was never able to to so in reality due to many circumstances (terrain, distances etc). But I wasn`t there. I think. My earlier days are hazy due to partying. On a sidenote, merry Christmas to all of you. I have no contributions to bring here, but I learn every time I dig in the archives of this board or read posts in general. In a way, I kind of feel like I know some of you a little too. Stay safe, Geir
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Post by wild on Dec 25, 2018 3:39:00 GMT -6
Hi Dan festive greetings. Nice to see you still holding the line. Best Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 26, 2018 11:14:48 GMT -6
Further AZ Battalions were adhoc formations of various units . The COs of these units did not act up but maintained their permanent rank. Benteen was not acting major. Cheers For lack of a better term the jobs are defined. A regiment would have a Colonel in charge. Wings would have the Colonel and Lt Colonel, battalions would have Majors in charge, and companies would have Captains in charge. At full strength and in the field there would be no need for Captains to act as Majors in charge of battalions and all 12 companies should have Captains in charge. I believe you will find that Reno states he was acting Lt. Colonel. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 26, 2018 11:29:01 GMT -6
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 26, 2018 12:42:07 GMT -6
I can not find a single Captain or Major that states they first hand heard the battalion assignments of Yates and Keogh. Only one Captain testifies he later heard of the assignments but doesn't state who he heard it from. All the ones that I have read stated they were told individually of their assignments directly from Custer or Cook. Since there is no way Captain Moylan would be able to talk with any of the companies with Custer and Custer seemed to make these assignments directly himself or through Cook it would appear there was no general meeting where the assignment were made. Of those there after the battle the following have no clue of the assignments other than there own.
McDougall Mathey Benteen Godfrey Reno Moylan
French and Weir were not at RCOI
Dead
McIntosh Custer Cook Custer Yates Keogh Smith Calhoun
That should cover any one that would have received a direct order or had knowledge such as Custer and Cook. So the outliers are French and Weir but what was consistent was the captains were told who to report to in testimony.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by benteen on Dec 26, 2018 16:56:04 GMT -6
Steve,
As I said I lost my book on the RCOI, but I assure you that the statement by the 2 Captains are there. I think it may be McDougald was one of them. Take a look at his testimony.
PS....Where can I get another copy of the book by Col Graham.
Semper Fi and happy holidays
Be Well Dan
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Post by herosrest on Dec 26, 2018 17:11:54 GMT -6
I believe this to be a complicated statement made thus by Custer's demise. Benteen - Here is the 1954 Graham Abstract at Hathi.
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Post by wild on Dec 27, 2018 6:11:47 GMT -6
AZ I will stick with my description of battalions as being ad hoc formations not requiring the senior office to "Act up". Benteen and Weir being an example. Reno by virtue of his rank as major was 2i/c of the regiment and as he states carrying out what he imagined were the functions of that Rank .but he was not the lt. Col. Of the regiment that was Custers rank and status. In fact Reno untill he was assigned a battalion had no role and was virtually ignored. Cheers Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 27, 2018 7:31:09 GMT -6
Steve, As I said I lost my book on the RCOI, but I assure you that the statement by the 2 Captains are there. I think it may be McDougald was one of them. Take a look at his testimony. PS....Where can I get another copy of the book by Col Graham. Semper Fi and happy holidays Be Well Dan Semper Fi my friend Here is the online RCOI digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/History/History-idx?id=History.RenoI went through it to make my above post but I could have missed something.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 27, 2018 8:02:50 GMT -6
AZ I will stick with my description of battalions as being ad hoc formations not requiring the senior office to "Act up". Benteen and Weir being an example. Reno by virtue of his rank as major was 2i/c of the regiment and as he states carrying out what he imagined were the functions of that Rank .but he was not the lt. Col. Of the regiment that was Custers rank and status. In fact Reno untill he was assigned a battalion had no role and was virtually ignored. Cheers Richard Richard I did not suggest that battalions were permanent structures in 1876. What I am suggesting that if Custer had his all three majors they would be the battalion commanders and the captains would remain with there companies. Just what do think the role of Majors were in 1876? You should be able to make things work without having to remove persons to fill a position. When Benteen was a wing commander you don't think he was acting as at least a Lt. Col. My believe is that wings if from were commanded by Cols and Lt Cols. Regards Steve
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Post by wild on Dec 27, 2018 16:57:30 GMT -6
Hi AZ Rank is not solely based on field appointment. To oversee the functioning of a cavalry regiment in garrison and on field operations requires a multiplicity departments. Admin,recruiting, Mounts,armoury, training,medical,engineering etc. These roles will require experienced senior officers. Thus a major may find himself in command of a scouting detachment on field operations while a captain commands a battalion. If we accept your theory Benteen would have outranked Reno as not only did he command a battalion he also was responsible for the train and escort. And by the same token Custer would have been reduced to major , commanding as he did at fall of curtain 2 companies. Cheers Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 28, 2018 8:38:08 GMT -6
Hi AZ Rank is not solely based on field appointment. To oversee the functioning of a cavalry regiment in garrison and on field operations requires a multiplicity departments. Admin,recruiting, Mounts,armoury, training,medical,engineering etc. These roles will require experienced senior officers. Thus a major may find himself in command of a scouting detachment on field operations while a captain commands a battalion. If we accept your theory Benteen would have outranked Reno as not only did he command a battalion he also was responsible for the train and escort. And by the same token Custer would have been reduced to major , commanding as he did at fall of curtain 2 companies. Cheers Richard Richard I think you have confused me. Acting does not mean that you change rank. It means you are performing the duty of a different rank. Lt Col Custer was acting like a Colonel who would be in charge of the regiment. He would not change rank or pay. Reno states himself he was acting as the Lt Col even though Custer was there. It is the duties of the various ranks that one can serve as acting. Some say Custer was acting like battalion commander when he died. Custer was still a Lt Col. Reno was still a major. Benteen was still a Captain. Reno was always a Major and second in charge under Custer by rank so I am not sure why you would think Benteen could outrank Reno. I think there are manuals that describe duties of officer by rank. Regards Steve
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Post by herosrest on Dec 28, 2018 10:23:34 GMT -6
I have to say that it's all jolly confusing and that that is obvious rather than confusing. They may have been confused in 1876 but we have absolutely no excuse for it. Maj. Reno was a Brigadier General. On July 4th, 1876 he (Reno) applied for Custer's vacant Lieutenant Colonelcy. His application was endorsed by men serving under him. Do we know if Peter Thompson of Company C was a signatory of the endorsement? Yes, it is confirmed here by Paul Williams in Custer and the Sioux. The petition, obviously the work of a very fine mind, sought to fulfill officer promotions within the regiment by precluding officer's of other regiments and promoting those of the 7th Cavalry to fill the 7th Cavalry's vacant officer positions. It was unfortunate for Reno that Sheridan was unabale to fulfill the petition and promote Maj. Reno who would then, arguably have become the Army's senior Lt. Col. in Custer's place. At the time of his demise Custer was the army's senior Lt. Colonel since February 1876. The matter was considered unfavorably by Du Bois in a Case Study first published in 1954 and revised and enlarged in 1961 and available to read online HERE. This work confirmed that Custer was slaughtered.
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Post by wild on Dec 28, 2018 11:11:12 GMT -6
Hi AZ As battalions were not permanent and as their composition was not defined, the rank of the officer commanding was not set. Thus a 2nd Lt. Could command such a unit/detachment and would not be required to assume the rank of a higher grade. Best Richard
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Post by herosrest on Dec 28, 2018 11:51:37 GMT -6
Hi AZ As battalions were not permanent and as their composition was not defined, the rank of the officer commanding was not set. Thus a 2nd Lt. Could command such a unit/detachment and would not be required to assume the rank of a higher grade. Best Richard I'm not sure if it helps but both Capt. Benteen and Maj. Reno were referred to as Colonel in 1876 although neither of them then were. Reno was a Colonel in 1865 when he led the 12th Pennsylvania Volunteer Cavalry who fought Moseby in Virginia during the total war there. Benteen was the Colonel of an infantry regiment. Arlington
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