|
Post by harpskiddie on Sept 3, 2007 0:47:31 GMT -6
Vern:
Did you discover these cases with Jason, or did Jason discover them and point out where the discoveries were made? And I would repeat dc's question - how many were found on each line, and what were the intervals/quantities that led to the conclusion that they marked a skirmish line?
For example, one case at point A and one case at point B 1000 yards away, does not make for evidence of a skirmish line, even if there are a few other cases spread over a line drawn joining the two points. Were any unfired cases among those discovered, and how many?
I appreciate your information.
Gordie, I met a girl from Venus. Her insides were lined with gold. She did what she did, and said: "How was it, kid?" - She was politely told: "Pretty good, not bad, I can't complain................"
|
|
|
Post by Vern Smalley on Sept 3, 2007 7:54:36 GMT -6
Jason found all the casings from 1992 to 1995. As best I know, he was by himself.
There were many finds, but we'd have to ask him for the numbers. He had them in his museum, but as I recall, they were the first to be sold when they needed money to pay the mortgage.
We know from RCOI testimony that there were two skirmish lines in that area, i.e., west of where the bodies of Reynolds, Dorman and McIntosh were found. Indeed, there were two and only two lines where casings were found. All casings had no headstamp, consistent with what Custer's men had. Jason found no casings between the two lines, meaning there was not a third line.
If men from Ft. Custer went into that area, used the same type ammo, and also made a line at the same bearing (about 60 degrees off MN), then it was one heck of a coincidence that they chose exactly the same location as Reno.
I recall unfired ammo in Jason's collection, but my memory is hazy. We'd have to ask Jason to be certain. That would be a good clue they were lost by Reno's men and not Ft. Custer's. Green recruits would be fumble-fingered and excited at being shot at by warriors. We'd expect to find a few unfired cartridges.
Jason identified the end points of each skirmish line on August 9, 2007, and drove in posts and rebar stakes to mark them. My role was to watch (an advantage to being much older). The next day, I got out my tape measure and measured.
There are so many questions and issues being raised here, I miss many. Sorry. Just keep asking if I missed something.
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Sept 3, 2007 9:05:24 GMT -6
Thanks, Vern. That clears it up for me, pretty much.
Gordie, I saw the light, boys, I saw the light - no more darkness, no more night.............................
|
|
jody
Junior Member
Posts: 53
|
Post by jody on Sept 6, 2007 9:20:35 GMT -6
Vern: Could you post a map with the lines plotted? Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 6, 2007 9:41:19 GMT -6
Two skirmish lines isn't really true, is it? They set up one line and advanced, I'd hope firing, to a second point, then folded back. Or, did they cease the first line, mount, and ride to a second? There should be cases between the two static points, and suspicious if not. That, if we grant a near pristine field, unplowed or built upon, unvisited by swarms over the years, including an early railroad, state highway or two, and Army.
The locations and numbers of the cases would be of concern. On Custer field proper, very few cases suggest a line heroically held by soldiers only to some folks.
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Sept 6, 2007 10:52:39 GMT -6
And JW Vaughan was over this same ground thirty years or so prior [see Indian Fights - new facts on seven encounters] with his own finds and interpretations of same..........
Gordie, just a boy and his dog, we were both full of fun - we grew up together that way..................
|
|
|
Post by mwkeogh on Sept 6, 2007 13:42:46 GMT -6
Two skirmish lines isn't really true, is it? They set up one line and advanced, I'd hope firing, to a second point, then folded back. Or, did they cease the first line, mount, and ride to a second? There should be cases between the two static points, and suspicious if not. That, if we grant a near pristine field, unplowed or built upon, unvisited by swarms over the years, including an early railroad, state highway or two, and Army. The locations and numbers of the cases would be of concern. On Custer field proper, very few cases suggest a line heroically held by soldiers only to some folks. The two skirmish lines advanced dismounted. We are not told whether or not they continued to fire away at the warriors while advancing. Even if they did, I would surmise that the overwhelming majority of cartridge finds would be located at the static positions the lines eventually took; however, IF few cartridges were found between the lines, it would more than likely indicate that the troopers did not continue to fire on the advance, no doubt due to lack of resistance or targets to fire at, which might explain why they felt the need to advance in the first place. On Custer field proper, the lack of cartridge cases are more logically explained by the actions of souvenir hunters....something the Reno field, being on private land, managed to avoid.
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 6, 2007 14:52:56 GMT -6
Okay. There was ONE skirmish line that held TWO static positions, and advanced on foot between as I understood it. There were not TWO lines, both of which advanced. One company, initially in reserve, was almost immediately brought into line. Is this not so?
Since we're not offered any count for the cases found, 'overwhelming' is not a word to be applied. Even if by amusing supposition they had no resistance to an advance, they certainly would on the way back. Being the reason they headed back, and all.
Your touching belief in a general high regard for private property notwithstanding, a bloody railroad and then a state highway went right through these notional locations and it would be difficult to believe they weren't pillaged, and if not by those people, then the picnic stops of the tourists shipped in by the railroad would. If not them, the plow. And before this, a well documented celebration with captured guns the day of the battle followed by a huge movement across Reno's lines as the tribes headed south. Then all the campings on that flatland by the river. Lots of age appropriate cases could be found having zippo to do with the battle.
|
|
|
Post by mwkeogh on Sept 6, 2007 16:15:43 GMT -6
Okay. There was ONE skirmish line that held TWO static positions, and advanced on foot between as I understood it. There were not TWO lines, both of which advanced. One company, initially in reserve, was almost immediately brought into line. Is this not so? Yes, this is correct. G Co. was actually brought up into line from its reserve position before Reno called a halt to dismount the battalion, so there would have been one skirmish line roughly 500 yards long across the floor of the valley. I don't have an exact count from when I last spoke to Jason, but I do recollect that he had found hundreds of trooper cartridges in these positions. But this is a good query and it should be asked of Jason when any of us next come across him. As far as your view that Reno's men would have felt a need to fire on their retreat to the timber position, this is not necessarily so. Most accounts refer to the hostiles as being about 800 to 1000 yards away from the skirmish line. The return fire from the hostiles was insignificant to the point that not a single trooper on the skirmish line was shot. They did not fall back due to heavy hostile fire, but rather to the fact that the hostiles had circled to their rear and threatened to cut them off from their held horses in the timber. They fell back unopposed while the majority of the hostiles were still far out of range, thus there was no great need to stop, turn about and fire. They were not chased into the timber. They fell back the several hundred yards with little pressure at all. The railroad and highway only went thru the western end of the 2nd (and furthest) skirmish line, thus disturbing only a portion of that line. There might well have been a bit of pillaging in those locations, I have no doubt. The railroad stop, with its notional picnic area would have been situated in the vicinity of the present day post office, more at the site of the Hunkpapa village and far beyond walking distance for most people to hike over private land to reach a site that held little interest for the overwhelming majority of the general public. Most people came to see where Custer fought, not Reno. I don't know if that field was subsequently plowed or used as grazing for cattle. Jason could answer that question as well. He could also explain whether the use of a plow would seriously scatter the artifacts about the field or only in a limited and cursory manner. As I am not a farmer, I would not know. As far as your well documented celebration with firing of guns the day of the battle, I would suggest that not many warriors were standing in the valley firing their guns in celebration of their victory. Keeping in mind Runs the Enemy's statement about this phase of the battle after Reno's rout: (The Vanishing Race, p. 174) "The genuine stuff was coming, and they [ie. Custer's Battalion] were going to get our women and children. I went over with the others...and saw the soldiers advancing...it looked as if there were thousands of them, and we would surely be beaten. As I returned, I saw hundreds of Sioux. I looked into their eyes, and they looked different---they were filled with fear." It would appear that the natives were in anything but a celebratory mood after dispensing with Reno. A new threat had emerged demanding their immediate presence elsewhere to the north. Then the huge movement of the hostile village moving south across the valley the next day did not occur across Reno's skirmish lines but rather further west across the interstate and closer to the western bluffs.
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 6, 2007 16:35:32 GMT -6
The huge movement was 1.)huge, and 2.) even if the toddler on the furthest west (right) flank dragged his hands along the rise, the whole thing at various points extended a half mile and more in width, according to the various descriptions. And if Indians used cases again, they'd surely hit something so close rather than exhume around the biodegrading corpses on LSH. People pillaged the Reno trash heap after it was buried, apparently, so I'm not thrilled by assurances private property was respected.
More to the point, the 7th described extensive festivities in the village and environs that night involving firing of weapons. That would include Reno's lines, which were near the village and between it and Reno's current location where there'd be traffic. None of this proves anything, I admit. Conversely, rumored shell cases found by one person and perhaps not marked on a map till later, and which coincidently might make the property more valuable as a proveable battlesite is less compelling than so. We are told here that these cases are common and sold on Ebay.
I tend to believe it rather than not, but this is far from evidence level, and given unproveable security of the items, never will rise to it.
The train's picnic site was opposite MTC.
|
|
|
Post by Vern Smalley on Sept 6, 2007 17:49:58 GMT -6
Jody: Thanks for asking. DC: I and others have used the phrase "Skirmish Line" to designate each place where Reno's men stopped for a significant length of time, and left a number of casings. That is, a skirmish line was formed there, then moved 585 feet and another skirmish line was formed. I have no idea whether the men kept a straight line while they moved, but the casings were found in approximately straight lines. Jason told me that Skirmish Lines #1 and #2 extended across the road-highway-railroad, and into a field to the west about 40 feet. From where he placed the eastern post on line#1 to its western-most position, measured 993 feet including the 40 feet. The line was about 330 yards long, not 500 yards. I guess the men were scrunched a bit closer for personal comfort than what the army recommended.
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 6, 2007 19:13:22 GMT -6
Mr. Smalley,
I actually did understand you; it was Keogh's post ("The two skirmish lines advanced dismounted.") I thought confusing. As you previously noted, the railroad and the two highways cut right across the skirmish lines.
It still bothers me Custer wouldn't wait for Benteen by Weir Point, if he waited, and I'm not convinced the waving hats by one or four means much under any circumstances. It's the sort of detail I'd think a traumatized memory could fit where it was comfortable rather than accurate, with no deliberate harm intended.
|
|
|
Post by mwkeogh on Sept 9, 2007 19:29:39 GMT -6
Mr. Smalley, I actually did understand you; it was Keogh's post ("The two skirmish lines advanced dismounted.") I thought confusing. As you previously noted, the railroad and the two highways cut right across the skirmish lines. It still bothers me Custer wouldn't wait for Benteen by Weir Point, if he waited, and I'm not convinced the waving hats by one or four means much under any circumstances. It's the sort of detail I'd think a traumatized memory could fit where it was comfortable rather than accurate, with no deliberate harm intended. This map location of Reno's skirmish line certainly does surprise me, as it was not at all where I envisioned it at all. I was under the impression that these lines were much further east and closer to the timber area by skirmish line #3. I am surprised that Reno would allow a dismounted skirmish line to advance so far from the location of his horseholders! And where was the location of the ravine that Reno and others spoke so much about? (the one that supposedly held 500 warriors in ambush and caused Reno to halt his charge). According to this map, it would appear that this ravine was behind the skirmish lines.....another problem is why Reno would leave such a gap between his right skirmish line flank and the bank of the LBH. Many written descriptions of those who were there mentioned that the right flank rested on or near the bank of the river..... Well, like most other aspects of LBH, it seems to be another enigma wrapped in a cunundrum.
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Sept 9, 2007 19:48:22 GMT -6
keogh:
See my post on Who's On First, and my suggestion to douglas about Reno's positions in the valley. If you have not read Vaughn's work, you might give it a shot.
Gordie, take my hand, I'm a stranger in Paradise - all lost in a wonderland......................................
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 9, 2007 20:03:31 GMT -6
Where does Jason Pitsch's property end at the north? I'm under the impression the lines were further north, with the furthest so elbowing the Garry Owen Loop, in the southern armpit of which was the timber. I use Godfrey's map in Custer's Luck for this.
|
|