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Post by Realbird on Aug 11, 2007 18:21:44 GMT -6
Wiggs, other then previously claiming several times I thought there were only about five people with 24 ID's each that contributed to Custer boards - and I haven't shaken that - I had no interest in Realbird other than a hope he was a land owner by the LBH. No, I did not know, nor did I claim, that Wiggs and Realbird were the same unless I used that as an example long ago and have forgot. "When you have nothing to say, say nothing." Charles C. Cotton
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Post by rch on Aug 15, 2007 17:25:07 GMT -6
Darcloud,
Re: reply # 553
1 - 5 I'll take the liar's word. Prejudices were in operation on the 15 killed side as well.
9. Benteen said he was about 500 yards ahead of his battalion with Weir between Benteen and his command. He said he could hear firing and see the last of the valley firing 2 miles away.
If he could as you say see and hear nothing why would he assume there would be any danger in proceeding with his command across the river and along Reno's trail?
16. Not it isn'y. You were talking about tuberculosis, careless medical examinations. I have recieved "They Died with Custer" and I note that you never mentioned boils or rheumatism, or non-combat related gunshot wounds, or for that matter piles, tooth decay, or what we used to call VD but which is now STD.
I don't know when the Navy made any actual arrangements to hirer and convert transports. I think they must have had it in mind, but I doubt they had any way to commit to the rental without War being near or declared. I think they would naturally think in those terms and that therefore they were able to act more quickly. It seems however that the Navy ignored the possibility that the Army might need transports to fulfill the mission even the Navy invisioned for the Army.
Miles was able to go to any ship owner and say, "my what a lovley day. How;s by you?"
rch
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 15, 2007 18:31:43 GMT -6
1 - 5 Well, if you knowingly and willingly side with the liar, you're not out for accuracy.
9. You're being slippery again. "Benteen said he was about 500 yards ahead of his battalion with Weir between Benteen and his command. He said he could hear firing and see the last of the valley firing 2 miles away." Okay. But then....
"If he could as you say see and hear nothing...." But I don't say that. I said he could not see the timber (at that time) where Reno is postulated to have stayed, which was the issue. He might hear but it would be irresponsible to cross and attack a sound knowing naught what was going on.
16. "Not it isn'y." Easy for you to say. I was talking about the general condition of 1876 soldiers compared to the selection offered in the CW.
Regarding the Navy's preparations, I only took what you said as evidence for my point: if what you contended was true, the Navy was competent and the Army under Miles was not. "It seems however that the Navy ignored the possibility that the Army might need transports to fulfill the mission even the Navy invisioned for the Army." Probably. Why wouldn't it? It was the Army's job back then to see to its transport. The Navy's job was to defend it enroute. That wasn't unclear. It was Miles' job and he didn't do it. He could have asked the Navy to do it at need, I suppose, but apparently he didn't.
Miles was able to go to any ship owner and say, "hey, if we ever need them, what's the routine for getting transports quick? Ballpark figures, who do we need to talk to?" Much too little, much too late.
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Post by rch on Aug 26, 2007 12:20:26 GMT -6
Darkcloud, 9. Then if it's just Benteen, or Benteen and his orderly, and he is at the river - he could not see or maybe hear any action in Reno's timber if Reno had stayed. 9. You did say "maybe hear." I took you to mean that if Reno was still fighting in the timber, Benteen could not see or hear any action going on in the valley. If he could hear firing going on then he should have crossed the river and gone to the sound of the guns.
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Post by markland on Aug 26, 2007 12:42:29 GMT -6
Regarding the Navy's preparations, I only took what you said as evidence for my point: if what you contended was true, the Navy was competent and the Army under Miles was not. "It seems however that the Navy ignored the possibility that the Army might need transports to fulfill the mission even the Navy invisioned for the Army." Probably. Why wouldn't it? It was the Army's job back then to see to its transport. The Navy's job was to defend it enroute. That wasn't unclear. It was Miles' job and he didn't do it. He could have asked the Navy to do it at need, I suppose, but apparently he didn't. Miles was able to go to any ship owner and say, "hey, if we ever need them, what's the routine for getting transports quick? Ballpark figures, who do we need to talk to?" Much too little, much too late. You refuse to understand the structure of the United States Army during that period, thus you persist in tilting at windmills! Miles, as Commanding General, only commanded the field forces and reported to the Secretary of War. The staff departments: Ordnance, Quartermaster, Subsistence, Medical, Engineering, Adjutant General only reported to the Secretary of War. There was no unified structure, i.e., General Staff at that time. While Miles is not my favorite flavor of frontier Army commanders, he was competent. If you wish to blame someone for dragging their feet to equip an expeditionary force, start with the Secretary of War. He (and the President) were the only ones to hold authority over the Staff department commanders. Billy
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 26, 2007 13:31:02 GMT -6
IF he could hear firing, were Reno still in the timber, he should not blindly commit his forces already tasked with protecting the train by putting the river between him and it. He has no clue what's happening on the east side of the river. He should do pretty much what he did: ride to easy and near high ground to see what the hell was going on. For the first time that day by an officer of the 7th, by the way. A break with tradition, apparently, knowing what's happening. If it is a fixed cliche that you pointlessly ride to the sound of firing, why doesn't it apply to Custer? Who clearly did not. Cross at MTCF and hit Reno's attackers from the rear, why don't cha George? Different rules. Judas. I grasp Miles' role. And as I've said before, an excuse of "Not his chob, man" may have been true if we're talking about allocating the money and signing the papers. Miles would be something of the last word on what field forces would be needed for various scenarios. The ship owners and the Secretary of War et al both needed to be informed by the head of the cargo at issue what and how many and where and when. What units would be going under what scenario from which coast? What were Miles' thoughts on any of that? Or would it be considered appropriate that, war declared against someone, the Lt. General in charge of the entire Army would only be expected to answer: 'don't know, let me get back to you' with the war vote echoing in the Congress chamber? Wasn't that his job: to visualize the wars ahead and make sure the Army was ready? Or did he have nothing to do if there was no Army in the field? No sense of responsibility to be prepared for the obvious? Since he'd hopefully know what units of what types would be required - given he had to win with them - that would guide decisions of what types of ships were needed to carry them. But, no. It was a Chinese Fire Drill. A Fluster Cluck. A disaster if it had been against anything but Spain, and even so could have been. I'm sure there was lots of blame to be shared, but nobody postured like Miles or was so quick to blame others, and the offered excuse for the Army's dismal organization for a war long predicted is to say it wasn't explicitly his job? Normally, that could be blamed on West Point, but he never attended. Wait. Waaaait. I may need to reconsider. "He retired from service in 1903, confirmed in his belief that graduates of West Point had an unfair advantage in promotion and were on the whole less capable of command than those who rose through the ranks as he had." ( www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/people/i_r/miles.htm)
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Post by rch on Aug 26, 2007 14:31:50 GMT -6
Darkcloud,
1 - 5. I used the word "liar," because you used it. My devotion to accuracy is not for me to judge.
To write, as some historians have, that Custer reported the 7th killed about 100 Indians but only about 15 were warriors, doesn't strike me as accurate.
16. If you are talking about the relative health of Civil War enlistees and the enlistees of post war years, think you're absolutely wrong. My impression from what I have read is that during the Civil War little regard was paid to the physical condition of the enlistees. I've mentioned Slaper's account of his medical exam. On what are you basing your comparison.
I agree that it was the Army's job to provide transport, but it "was not Miles' job." In terms of understanding the Army of 1898 this limit on Miles' poweres is extremely important. I disagree that Miles was in any way negligent or incompetent in the performance of his duties.
rch
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Post by Vern Smalley on Sept 1, 2007 21:19:42 GMT -6
Sorry I'm later with this, but Jason Pitsch found carbine casings in 1992-1995 on Reno's three skirmish lines on his farmland. He and I marked the three lines with white steel fence posts. That is, I bought the posts and painted them white. Jason drove them into the ground.
I measured Skirmish line #1 at 993 feet, from end to end. If Reno had 100 men and they were at normal skirmish intervals or 5 yards, the line should have been 1,500 feet. It ran about 60 degrees off magnetic north.
Contrary to testimonies at the RCOI, the men did not advance 100 yards for the second line. I measured the advance to be 585 feet.
The line did not pivot as was claimed to make the third line with their backs to the timber, but apparently went in to the timber and brush at the right (east) end of the line. The men apparently formed a variety of lines but none were maintained for any length of time. The third definable line was located a quarter mile away from the east end of lines #1 and 2. It ran roughly North-South. Their backs would have been to the timber there.
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Post by mwkeogh on Sept 1, 2007 22:20:49 GMT -6
Sorry I'm later with this, but Jason Pitsch found carbine casings in 1992-1995 on Reno's three skirmish lines on his farmland. He and I marked the three lines with white steel fence posts. That is, I bought the posts and painted them white. Jason drove them into the ground. I measured Skirmish line #1 at 993 feet, from end to end. If Reno had 100 men and they were at normal skirmish intervals or 5 yards, the line should have been 1,500 feet. It ran about 60 degrees off magnetic north. Contrary to testimonies at the RCOI, the men did not advance 100 yards for the second line. I measured the advance to be 585 feet. The line did not pivot as was claimed to make the third line with their backs to the timber, but apparently went in to the timber and brush at the right (east) end of the line. The men apparently formed a variety of lines but none were maintained for any length of time. The third definable line was located a quarter mile away from the east end of lines #1 and 2. It ran roughly North-South. Their backs would have been to the timber there. Great description here Vern. Jason took me out there and showed me those positions in the field and they are exactly as you describe them. It makes a whole lot more sense of the valley fight than what has often been reported and is contrary to many of the maps I've seen reproduced in various books on the battle.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 2, 2007 9:26:59 GMT -6
What proof is there those cases were only fired by Reno's men during that hour 130 years ago? How many were found per "line" that proves it was a line? Have these cases all been vetted as conforming to the criteria for possible battle usage?
What is suspicious about a guesstimate three years after the fact they thought about 300 feet which was, if the new assumption is correct, 585? Isn't time and trivial distance while under fire known to be often confused in battle reports and veterans' memories? What is suspicious that they advanced further than they thought?
Shouldn't the common errors that we know people make in good faith in these things be allowed to exist at the RCOI?
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Post by Vern Smalley on Sept 2, 2007 15:29:56 GMT -6
I was reporting on marking the lines, not passing judgement. I was pleased that we got some markers out there for the first time in 130 years, thanks to Jason Pitsch.
All cartridge casings had a blank headstamp, consistent with those known to be used by Custer's men.
We also drove in some steel rebar into the ground a short distance away from each post. If some dingbat steals the post, we can hopefully detect the underground rebar using a metal detector, then replace the post. Once Jason is gone, NOONE will ever know where he found the casings. We owe Jason a lot on this one.
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Post by mwkeogh on Sept 2, 2007 16:13:51 GMT -6
I was reporting on marking the lines, not passing judgement. I was pleased that we got some markers out there for the first time in 130 years, thanks to Jason Pitsch. All cartridge casings had a blank headstamp, consistent with those known to be used by Custer's men. We also drove in some steel rebar into the ground a short distance away from each post. If some dingbat steals the post, we can hopefully detect the underground rebar using a metal detector, then replace the post. Once Jason is gone, NOONE will ever know where he found the casings. We owe Jason a lot on this one. You are both due great thanks for your efforts and diligence in uncovering and preserving the truth of what happened in the valley that day. Jason's research on the Reno battlefield has done more than any individual I can think of to reveal the true positions of the troops that day. He actually claimed, if I recall correctly, that the left end of Reno's skirmish line ended across the other (west) side of I-90!. He also felt that the lone tree left standing in the center of the old timber area may have marked the spot where Bloody Knife was killed. Certainly no proof exists of course, but he could not think of any other reason that one tree was left standing when all the rest were cut down. An interesting thought.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 2, 2007 17:21:39 GMT -6
Since Reno got to keep his carbines has any of the found cartridge cases been matched to firearms known to have been carried on that day?
I am surprised that they would have under estimated the distance by almost one half. I would have have expected the opposite.
AZ Ranger
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 2, 2007 19:02:29 GMT -6
Understand, if the cases are relevant to the battle, that is indeed a service to the historical record. But, are they relevant to the battle?
Wouldn't discovering the actual combat lines in effect announce another battle site, and be of value in and of itself to the landowner? Other than a blank headstamp, is there else? And again: how many were found that provided the notion there was a line? Over 1500 feet, that would have to be a lot of cases. How many were found? Who has vetted these cases?
Wouldn't that area, so near the tracks and all those tourist picnics, have been well pillaged by folks through the decades? Doesn't WCF show campsites in and about that area with army guys who'd be armed with just that sort of ammo? And staging areas for events, and hunting, and the camp with all the Sioux that night celebrating with their recently obtained new carbines? You'd have to have hundreds on each of those notional lines to suggest such at all. And if so, it would be amazing they had stayed there, untouched, in the positions they fell during that 45 minute period, given the village tore right through the area heading south the next day. And that's before the plows of a hundred years, and highway construction.
How many cases were found in each line?
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Post by Vern Smalley on Sept 2, 2007 19:05:08 GMT -6
Perhaps BK was killed near the big tree, but we'll never know unless maybe he was buried there. Maybe someday they'll be able to use Jurassic Park technology to find buried skeletons! Anyway, the big tree would have marked the south end of skirmish line 3, and based on the line being at the old bank of the river, I'd bet that west of the line was out in the open. Looks logical, anyway. That means Reno wasn't there when BK was killed, but deeper in the timber to the east. Maybe by hundreds of feet? Hard to imagine Reno sitting on his horse, talking to BK, when right at the edge of the timber. According to Jason, the two lines extended some 40 feet to the west of the ranch fence, and quite a distance to the west of I-90. Here's what we have today, going from west to east: ranch fence/ railroad/ west frontage road/two lanes of I-90/east frontage road/ranch fence. Nearly all of Company M and a good share of Co. A were between the two ranch fences, and under present roads, highway and railroad. We didn't mark the far west end of the two lines because they would have been in a pasture on private land, and the cows would have used the steel fence posts as places to get scratched. That tends to demolish the posts over time. So we elected to not mark that end, but will get the article published for posterity sake. We also need to get a competent surveyor out there to triangulate locations of the line ends as well as the markers for Reynolds, Dorman and McIntosh as well as two unknown soldiers. Ranger, I have no idea how accurately they can correlate casings with carbines, but nearly all carbines and casings have dissipated into private collections. Personally, I'm very suspicious that it can be done with any confidence because there were only so many unique firing pin marks. Totally unlike fingerprints. I guess that you could say I don't trust that technique at all. I was totally shocked at the results of the measurements. I could understand the men standing closer than the regulation 5-yard intervals, but how did they underestimate the distance between the first two lines? Beats me. An even bigger shock was discovering that the third line was so far away from the first two. Somehow I had it in my mind that line 2 had M A G from west to east, and the right end of G rested on the timber. Then they called G into the timber to protect the horses, leaving M and A to move east to cover the gap. Then I thought that the line pivoted on the east end of A to form line 3. Instead, line 3 is a 1/4 mile away! Wow!
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