A couple puzzling points

[AZ Ranger]

Wild - Is it better to die for honor or live to finish the mission at a later date? Defending you homeland, way of life, or helpless people that are oppressed is one thing but taking land and driving the occupants off is another and to me less honorable than the former. It was a dirty job and the military had to do it but not much honor in it as I see it.

AZ Ranger

[wild]

Hi Liz
A major opus there and should go down well with aspirng fantasists.

You have covered most of the salient points in Benteen's decision making and suggested various outcomes if Benteen had employed best military practice.Perhaps your lenghty and interesting post deserves a more detailed reply but for now I'll just take one point you make to demonstrate the faulty reasoning you make use of.

What difference would the messenger's news make? My own guess is none.
Information is no handicap whether it is acted upon immediately or later or never.One piece of information on it's own might have no impact but when combined with other intell might just be crutial in tiping a decision one way or another.
Benteen failed at all stages to inform HQ of his progress,he failed to communicate with the packs,he failed to communicate his intentions to Reno.
Benteen is saved because a hero was required.An embarrassed military needed to salvage something from the humiliation.At Rourkes Drift they handed out handfuls of VC as a means of applying balm to the nations pride.The elite 7th officered by civil war heros is not only destroyed but destroyed by members of an other race.Horrors!Appoint a hero quick.
Nothing Benteen was duty bound to do can be second guessed as you do in your post Liz.What your essay does is to bestow on Benteen the ability to judge whether Custer will make good or bad use of information.
Cheers

[wild]

AZ
Is it better to die for honor or live to finish the mission at a later date?
The commander of the force has the responsibility to make this decision not sub unit commanders or individuals.
Slan

[markland]

Wild wrote in a reply to me in msg. 280 (I believe p. 18 or 19):

Throwing the word "murder" out there is only an attempt to divert the blame from where it should lie.

On the contrary the blame lies with two men but people like your goodself are so attached to one camp or the other that they espouse a very blinkered rationale.

Closer examination reveals that of the 3 main characters only Reno desplayed anything resembling professionalism.He is the one who went into the valley and survived.He is the one who fought in two of the main actions.Both Custer and Benteen deserted him at critical moments to fend for himself.Benteen never came under the same pressure as did Reno yet his decision making was appaling.
Let Benteen take his rightful and long over due place among histories scoundrals.

This primarily concerns the first paragraph in the above quote. If you would bother reading my past messages here and on AAO, you will discover that I am in no particular camp however much you may wish it to be. The only things you could hold up as evidence would be any criticisms towards GAC for his lack of communications of plans and / or intelligence to his subordinate commanders. Also you will find that I have criticized Reno's "charge" to the bluffs. I hate mentioning the last because as sure as God made little green apples, DC will start wanting a better plan from me including "...twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was."(1)

You all play nice now. I have to go back to installing a new hard drive and recovering unbacked up data from the old one.

Oh, rather than telling you all, I will let everyone guess where the phrase "...twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was..." came from.

Vaya con Dios,

Claw

[Dark Cloud]

1. Alice's Restaurant

2. And where are they? If Reno's skedaddle was such a horror leading to all those deaths, show us how, based on what he could possibly have known, it could have been done to better result. If nobody can do that, you can't say what he did was wrong. I don't think that a small issue.

[mcaryf]

Hi Elisabeth

Your's is a good example of one of the many reasonable scenarios that end in disaster once Custer has spread his force and lead his own column past Weir Point.

Unfortunately I think that Wild feels not enough Cavalry blood was spilt that day and is looking for opportunities for more. One of his favourite demands is that Benteen sends a messenger back as soon as he gets the one from Custer. He casually disregards the likely scenario that Custer has charged the village - there are stray Indians scattering in all directions who would be only too happy to find a lone cavalryman taking a message to Custer somewhere in the middle of the village! Poor Martini has just arrived on a wounded horse so let us give the Indians another target as they did not quite get the last one.

Regards

Mike

[markland]

darkcloud said:

1. Alice's Restaurant

2. And where are they? If Reno's skedaddle was such a horror leading to all those deaths, show us how, based on what he could possibly have known, it could have been done to better result. If nobody can do that, you can't say what he did was wrong. I don't think that a small issue.

Deputy Obie, I figured you would arise like Freddie when the proper chain was pulled.

OK, let's look at Reno's charge. Based upon your posts, I suspect that you think he headed for the bluffs at the beginning of the "charge." I don't think so and really don't care to waste time looking through the various witness reports to prove otherwise. The only caveat to your requests for "...twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was..." is that you do not put too much faith in the recitation included in the Reno report. You do realize that people who have screwed up will, if not outright lie, at least slant the verbiage in their favor?

Of course, you do live in the People's Republic of Colorado so that by defying common sense, and: ensuring that your troops are notified of the "charge" and that a route is understood by the subordinate officers and that a method of covering fire is agreed to by those same officers, really is not understood in the "no-oxygen" environment in which you live. Sheesh, are you sure Shrub isn't a Coloradian rather than a Texan?

Be good,

Claw

[Dark Cloud]

There is a reason everyone refuses - refuses - to demonstrate how such a move with covering fire would result in fewer casualties and overall would be a better choice. Lotta talk. Big hats. No cattle.

It doesn't matter that Reno was heading for his original ford and was nudged east. Speed and surprise were of the essence and cavalry came rather well equipped for it. I'm not saying he knew this and planned it out, but he's damned for what he did because, harump, he could have done something else that would have been better. Well? What is it?

What this requires, we're told, is covering fire. From where, and on horseback? OR dismount with horseholders, 3.4 horses per holder of the proper rank 1.34 furlongs to the rear at a 17 degree angle to the ranking officer's left foot, with the reins correctly woven through his fingers?

Oh, wait. Sorry. They're taking fire from four sides as it is, so they stop in the open and form a.....square? A dudecahedron? And with a full - let's see, 35 men to a company, less 25% is .....let's make it 36 men a company. Less 25% for horseholders that's 27 able to shoot, six in each direction. Horses in the center, of course, to receive any fire that misses the soldiers.

I was talking, sorry, where again? Show on the map. Where? Then mount up and ride to the next spot? And your casualties of horse and men are what, now?

At the same time Bloody Knife had his face transposed on to Reno's, Indians of merit would be trying to cut off and divide the soldiers and get them in the open (hence the firing of the brush) to polish them off piece by piece. What you're suggesting by demanding sequential covering fire is that Reno get the game ball from the Sioux by doing this for them.

There are accounts that say the lunge surprised the Sioux. I'd bet. And surprise and speed are probably mentioned in those Manuals of Arms that everyone sighs over, and in a good way. That people get left behind in these things isn't abnormal, and it's quite possible that some of those left had froze, or stayed with the scouts, or couldn't pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the sole. This is a small area, and if some officers didn't get the word or didn't pass the word, the activity alone should have been Clue One to these soldiers, so well trained they were and all.

But these stories are bizarre. Not only did they not hear the initial order to mount up, they didn't hear the order to dismount, and mount again. But the majority did. This is quite a noisy operation, and testimony is that Reno is yelling up to and including "All those who want to...." whatever "follow me." Being first out of cover and in the lead to the bluffs isn't the cringing coward's award winning move, either.

And - just mentioning in passing - it can look like Custer did the exact same thing, for all intents. Rebuffed or intimidated by initial contact, a race to high ground far away. His body was almost the furthest from the enemy although we're told - laughingly we hope, seriously I fear - he was on the offensive.

[AZ Ranger]

Not only four sides but among them also. I sure wouldn't want some trooper shooting at an Indian with me near the Indian. I suspect that all horse movements whether a retreat or charge have that many casualties when there is sufficient enemy firing into them.

If they were all expert shots under extreme pressure than they never would have never left the skirmish line. They weren't so the next best thing is to move as fast as you can and give them less time to shoot at you.

AZ Ranger

[wild]

Mike's take on military communications is very interesting.It seems he would have it carry a health warning--Use only in a safe environment

It is obvious from many of the contributions posted here that manoeuverings are the sine qua non of the fantasists.Reno's is quiet minimalist in this regard .Terrible unsporting of him not to endulge in a little parade ground showmanship.Now Custer on the other hand left a blank canvas on which the fantasists have him executing double faints and flying somersaults and woe be tide anyone who robs them of their jollies by suggesting Custer came to grief at the ford.
Slan

[AZ Ranger]

Just reading through Varnum's account and he states the Indians were riding adjacent to the soldiers firing into them. I can not see how you can have a field of fire from any defensive position that doesn't have the troopers in the same field of fire.

[AZ Ranger]

Sometimes the best thing to do is to get to top of the hill and reform. If the enemy is surrounding you 360 degrees and in greater numbers and also inside next you the best thing to is pick a point and exit.

Unless your a Marine Corps officer in Korea then you say we got them where we want them and they can't get away.

Semper Fi
AZ Ranger

[George Mabry]

It comes as no surprise to me that Reno’s run to the bluffs is considered by many to have been a panicked rout. I have no problem with his “charge to the rear” or the fact that he led the charge. A sudden bolt across open terrain is not in itself a bad plan. However if you leave people behind who will later say that they weren’t aware of any “charge” until they saw people leaving, you can expect, as the commander of that unit, some degree of criticism.

The next problem that looks bad is the river crossing at the base of the bluffs. Military mindset dictates that that crossing has to be covered. At least one of Reno’s officers realized that and apparently attempted to stop some of the troopers in order to set up a base of fire to cover the crossing. The fact that he was ignored and the troopers streamed past him, across the river and up the bluffs with no regard for the greater good also smells of a disordered rout. Then you have Reno’s reported conduct upon reaching the top of the bluffs. Add all these together and you come up with a panicked rout.

I’m aware of DCs lament. What he’s asking for cannot be given and that is why he is so persistent. No one can prove that if Reno’s withdrawal had been done in a more orderly, military manner, that he would have sustained less causalities. I believe that the odds are that he would have sustained less That is why the military has established procedures for dealing with this exact type situation. The Army can’t guarantee your survival. They simply give you a procedure/guidelines to follow that will give you the best odds possible. So if you find yourself in Reno’s position, you shouldn’t be surprised when you fall under some criticism when you step outside these procedures. That is especially true when dealing with disasters.

An even more important reason for following established guidelines and retreating in a military manner is that when you arrive at your destination, you arrive as a cohesive unit capable of continuing your mission. Look at the shape Reno's men were in when they reached the bluff top. Those men had been routed and were no longer an effective fighting force.

Endorsing Reno’s conduct of the withdrawal is like commending some soldier who, when he finds himself all alone and behind enemy lines, takes off his helmet, throws down his rifle, and runs screaming for his mother until he arrives safely back to his on lines. What he did might have worked for him but his chosen method of extracting himself from danger will never be condoned by Higher-Higher.

There are those that will try to justify the lack of communication between Reno and the troops prior to his charge as being due to battlefield noise and the confusion of the moment. That is why you shouldn’t attempt this at home. It should only be done by trained professionals.

[wild]

George Hi
The proceedures you suggest are suitable for a tactical withdrawal.Thet must be planned before hand with the vanguard,rear guard and covering party allocated their roles.What you are advocating is just not practical after the rout has begun.Also Reno's force was too small for detachments to have any effect.
I believe the withdrawal from the timber was an example of a very seldom seen manoeuvre the planned rout.
Slan

[Dark Cloud]

Again, the argument is misstated. Nobody denies the run from the timber was just that, whatever the original intent. As Hare said in testimony, they had finite ammo (he said for about another 30 minutes), and even with ammo they could not sustain the timber position should the Indians decide to rush them. On top of that, approaching night and proximity to the village were valid concerns.

It's quite a small area, and those who say they didn't hear any order to mount up are among those who say the firing wasn't heavy, which is puzzling. Sorta.

Faith based condemnation is not to be tolerated. What Reno did was probably the best thing that could have been done, but I have no problem with that being coincident rather than military ability. Those who claim that Reno SHOULD and COULD have done a staged retreat for better result - which would mean fewer casualties - have the obligation to show where and how. Because there would be no other reason to do an alternative, right? Unless it would produce a better result?

Also, they have the obligation to show the 7th was capable, and that these dances would not condemn those stopped on open ground. Some say a company should have stayed in the woods to delay the Sioux while the others rode off, then follow while they were covered by the others. Some vaguely say that covering fire should have been done for the river crossing, although they get fuzzy when confronted with firing from the bluffs themselves by Sioux there, and yet advocating soldiers face the other way, downhill, stock still, covering whoever survived the previous positions running to join them.

It could be true. I just find it rather annoying that nobody has the wherewithal to put it down on paper where soldiers and experienced people can offer their estimations. They can imply cowardice and incompetence to Reno - brevet something-general, medalled soldier - but somehow they're too busy to bolster condemnation with fact or superior command possibility that might prove embarrassing to themselves as the pros take them apart. That offends me, and I'd think it would offend anyone but especially another soldier who'd not enjoy being subjected to condemnation by accusers under no obligation to prove him wrong.

They could be right, of course. But airy references to existing military procedures doesn't cut it.