A couple puzzling points

[crzhrs]

There were many LBH survivors who praised Benteen for saving the command . . . and there were many soldiers who felt Custer had abandoned them as he abandoned Elliott.

Obviously we can go back and forth with this . . . there is as much evidence to support Benteen as there is to condemn him.

Custer was going by the seat of his pants with an attack via recon. He was issuing orders as he went. So we can say there was no set "plan" per see . . . but when Benteen is ordered to scout and Reno is ordered to attack, and Custer tells Reno he will be supported, in my mind, is surely a plan.

Sorta like Terry's "orders" but with the caveat of do as you see fit.

[wild]

Obviously we can go back and forth with this . . . there is as much evidence to support Benteen as there is to condemn himYes but one does not cancel the other.Benteen's agenda was not the destruction of the regiment, particularly not the portion to which he was attached but the military embarrisment of Custer.To put it at it's most basic level he was playing silly buggers and as he says Custer could look after himself.

[AZ Ranger]

A plan is a set of predetermined actions to which all participants are party . Your kidding of course 600 men sitting around a campfire listening to the "Plan". Terry called the plan and they were implementing it. They never got past the recon in force phase.

[wild]

Your kidding of course 600 men sitting around a campfire listening to the "Plan".
You must not confuse the individual with the unit.There were 4 independent units so it would have been an advantage if all commanders of battalions were familiar with a plan.

[mcaryf]

Hi Wild

I will have one last go at this but I suspect it will make no difference because your opinions are already formed.

Benteen returns to the main trail having aborted whatever his mission actually was. Analysis Benteen is correct in promptly abandonning Custer's mission when it proves impossible to fulfill.

Benteen meets Boston Custer and knows that information about his whereabouts will get to Custer. Analysis Benteen is correct information does rapidly get to Custer.

Benteen meets a messenger Kanipe who is looking for the pack train - he sends him on his way and continues at a trot along the trail. I cannot see a problem with this - only point to note is that we do not really know what Kanipe told Benteen. Analysis - appropriate action by Benteen.

Benteen meets another messenger Martini. Martini gives him misleading information that the Indians are running away and Custer is likely to have charged the Village some time ago. Martini was not briefed to give Benteen information about split in command etc (this was a clear error by Custer/Crooke). The message tells Benteen to come on possibly to Custer possibly to the Village. It also tells Benteen to be quick and to bring the packs. Benteen's decision is that he need not wait for the packs as long as he keeps himself between packs and village because he thinks he might be of some use further forward. Analysis Benteen's decision gets round Custer's confusingly phrased order and as a consequence he arrives in time to save Reno's command from annihilation. Correct decision by Benteen.

Benteen arrives at the Valley and sees a defeat in progress. He does not know who is fighting but decides not to join the valley floor action but to take his command to support the remnants fleeing up Reno Hill. Analysis - Benteen's decision is correct, an entry to the valley floor was likely to end in disaster. As it is he drives off the Indians and rescues Reno's command.

Benteen tries to find out what has happened to Custer gets little useful information from Reno. He shows Reno the order from Custer. Reno tells him to stay on the hill and take command whilst he Reno leaves his men to search for dead and wounded. Analysis Benteen initially has no option but to stay due to presence of Indians threatening pack train that he was ordered to protect.

Firing up the valley and departure of Indians indicates that Custer's command may still be in action although Custer himself may or may not be still alive. Pack train still not arrived. Analysis - Benteen has various options but none of them are obviously right or wrong. His choice to stay on the hill allows him to be reasonably consistent with both Custer's written order re bringing packs by waiting for them and consistent with Reno's verbal order to stay in command on the hill. Criticisms are firstly that he could have sent a messenger to speed packs which might have got them up 10 or so minutes earlier making no material difference to events. Secondly he could have sent a detatchment to observe from the high Weir Point, this too would have made no real difference to events other than giving us more eye witness reports to Custer's command's demise.

Once the pack train is coming up Benteen has to choose between staying on hill with Reno or attempting to obey Custer's last order. Analysis - Benteen chose to make an attempt to find out where Custer was. Technically it is not clear if he disobeyed legitimate orders or not from Reno, in practice I think his decision was the right one.

Benteen reaches Weir Point, realises that there is no chance to reunite with Custer and that the position is not good for defence. He allocates French, Weir and Godfrey to form a rearguard whilst he goes to make peace with Reno for disobeying his order and to agree a defensive position. The rearguard does not perform brilliantly but in the event only one man is lost before regaining a defensible position. Analysis - Benteen's quick thinking and analysis saves the command from potential disaster. Certainly Weir's company would have been in severe difficulty if Benteen had not brought forward support.

Subsequently Benteen provides the leadership needed to survive the next day's siege.

To sum it up, most of Benteen's decisions resulted in big plusses for the 7th. His wrong decisions or omissions, principally not summoning the packs to Reno Hill and not sending an observation detatchment earlier to find where Custer might be, had no material impact on the outcome. Overall I would say his contribution was substantially on the positive side.


Regards

Mike

[wild]

I will have one last go at this but I suspect it will make no difference because your opinions are already formed.
Settle for compairson of opinions rather than conversion.

Benteen returns to the main trail having aborted whatever his mission actually was. Analysis Benteen is correct in promptly abandonning Custer's mission when it proves impossible to fulfillCuster acrued no benifit from this as Benteen neglected to inform him either of his return to the trail or the negative results of his recce.

Benteen meets Boston Custer and knows that information about his whereabouts will get to Custer
No conversation passed between Boston and Benteen.Martin arrives after Boston has passed on his way.You defend Benteen by assuming that he assumes that Boston is on his way to Custer and will inform of Benteen's intentions.

Benteen meets another messenger Martini. Martini gives him misleading information that the Indians are running away and Custer is likely to have charged the Village some time ago
There is no evidence that Martin gave Benteen detailed information.There is however evidence that Benteen did not regard Martin as his brightest trooper and would not be influenced by Martins grasp of the situation.
At this point you have Benteen depending on a civilian and being influenced by an non English speaking bugler.

Benteen arrives at the Valley and sees a defeat in progress. He does not know who is fighting but decides not to join the valley floor action but to take his command to support the remnants fleeing up Reno Hill. Analysis - Benteen's decision is correct, an entry to the valley floor was likely to end in disaster. As it is he drives off the Indians and rescues Reno's command.The arrival of Benteen,the defeat of Reno and the presence of Custer so close to the village resulted in the withdrawal of the Indians.Not wanting to strip Benteen of all Credit let's award him a 1/3 share for his role in a momentry stabalisation of the situation on Reno Hill.

has no option but to stay due to presence of Indians threatening pack train that he was ordered to protect
Benteen fails to communicate with packs not even for much needed ammo.He issues no instructions to the packs for the advance to Weir Point.In fact but for Custer's written note we would have no idea that Benteen was responsible for the progress of the packs.

he could have sent a messenger to speed packs which might have got them up 10 or so minutes earlier making no material difference to events. Secondly he could have sent a detatchment to observe from the high Weir Point, this too would have made no real difference to events
This is the application of hindsight to excuse Benteen's negligence.

Once the pack train is coming up Benteen has to choose between staying on hill with Reno or attempting to obey Custer's last order. Analysis - Benteen chose to make an attempt to find out where Custer was. Technically it is not clear if he disobeyed legitimate orders or not from Reno, in practice I think his decision was the right one
He makes no attempt to organise this advance leaving Reno,wounded,dehorsed troopers and packs to fend for themselves and not indicating as he rode off with 3 troops his destination or if he would return.A total irresponsible action which could have ended in even greater slaughter than at LSH.

He allocates French, Weir and Godfrey to form a rearguard whilst he goes to make peace with Reno for disobeying his order That sums up the slippy tit---can't get through to Custer so best go back to Reno.You really capture the man's character there.
Regards

[AZ Ranger]

You must not confuse the individual with the unit.There were 4 independent units so it would have been an advantage if all commanders of battalions were familiar with a plan.

I didn't. Just didn't believe that the 7th only had four participants. No wonder they lost. Plans are dynamic in nature and change with intelligence. You can not form a detailed plan until you complete the reconnaissance plan. In this case almost everything was a unknown(location, terrain, size, fighting strength) except for Terry's plan. It ended before the recon was completed.

AZ Ranger

[wild]

Criticisms are firstly that he could have sent a messenger to speed packs which might have got them up 10 or so minutes earlier making no material difference to events.
I forgot to mention the above Mike.
I would not dismiss 10 minutes as easely as that.It only took Reno 7 minutes to get back across the LBH.10 Minutes equates to more than a mile.A mile from Calhoun ridge back towards Weir point is MTC.Benteen and his 3 companys on Weir Point [taking Reno's situation into consideration]at 4.45 opens up options for Custer.
Cheers

[crzhrs]

In Terry's report he stated that Benteen RIGHTLY did not go down in to the valley because of the numbers of Indians.

[mcaryf]

Hi Wild

The ten minutes referred to speeding up the packs i.e. having the ammunition ones arrive at a bit past 5pm by which time all is pretty well decided on Custer's field.

It seems to me that any reasonable analysis of Benteen's actions shows that the actual results were all positive or neutral. You have to create hypothetical downsides in order to criticise him. I do not think any military person's reputation could stand that sort of analysis.

Regards
Mike

[wild]

Crzhrs
In Terry's report he stated that Benteen RIGHTLY did not go down in to the valley because of the numbers of Indians.
The point being that Benteen did not effect the rescue of Reno.Reno had to extricate himself from the valley.How many men did Benteen see cut down and did not lift a finger to help?

Mike
It seems to me that any reasonable analysis of Benteen's actions shows that the actual results were all positive or neutral.The military are a system,a delivery system.Applying greater force to the enemy usually ensures a victory.Benteen terminated the flow of troops to the critical point as required by his Co.
Cheers

[harpskiddie]

And Terry and Gibbon did nothing at all. Does that mean that their actions were all positive or neutral? The idea was to compel the Indians to return to their reserves, or in some cases to go there for the first time.

Custer, for various and sundry reasons which we all continue to debate, at least tried to fullfil his mission, and so did Reno.

Gordie

[mcaryf]

Hi Wild

As far as I am aware the only person for whom we have a report of a sensible suggestion about the desirability of a concentration of force is Benteen and the only person whose actions resulted in some sort of concentration was Benteen. The best knowledge we have of Custer's last actions was that he continued to ride away from the other elements of his command.

Hi Gordie

You suggest Reno's actions were in support of the mission. If so these actions lasted somewhat less than 15 minutes as he rode towards the village following a direct order. Once he had some sort of view of the village and could exercise his own options, he switched to self-preservation mode - I do not criticise him for that, it was the sensible thing to do. With regard to Custer, we do not know for sure what he actually did but we think we know what he did not do. He did not mount any sort of serious attack on the village so I am not really sure how you can equate his actions even to those of Reno in terms of attempting to execute the mission.

By the time Benteen came directly in contact with the Indians the only realistic mission for the 7th, as a result of Custer's earlier dispositions of his forces, had effectively become to preserve as much of its strength as possible to fight another day.

The sequence of senior officers of the 7th realising that the original mission could not be achieved was probably Reno, Custer, Benteen, McDougall. Thus, for what it is worth, probably McDougall thought he was attempting to fulfill his part in the original mission for the longest period.

Regards

Mike

[elisabeth]

Suppose Benteen did everything Wild wants. Can we make a guess at how things might have turned out?

(1) He sends a messenger to Custer the moment he decides to return to the trail.

The messenger wouldn't necessarily know where Custer was, but assume for a moment he does get through. From Gray's timings, it seems most unlikely he could reach Custer before Reno is sent into the valley; or even before Custer goes up onto the bluffs. Custer's therefore already committed one unit to an attack from the south, and his own to an attack from the flank. What difference would the messenger's news make? My own guess is none. Custer would continue on with even more confidence, assuming that Benteen would second Reno's attack. Or he might send the messenger back with specific orders; but because the pack train has to be considered, these would most likely be the same as the Martini order.

(2) He tells the pack train to hurry up.

They can only travel as fast as they can travel. So, little difference there.

(3) He sees Reno's remnants being cut down in the valley -- and charges in.

Here we might see a difference. His surprise appearance could distract the Indians from the dozen or so troopers they're butchering; they turn their attention to Benteen instead. Possibly, as they don't know how many more soldiers are behind him, they just might rush back to get the village on the move, leaving only a rearguard to confront Benteen. Custer then sees the fleeing village he expects, and might -- or might not -- attack at MTC; more likely, he'd head for a northern ford to cut them off (or try to "herd" them north towards Terry/Gibbon). But with the numbers they've got, they'd just as likely ride straight over Benteen's three companies. It'd be hand-to-hand fighting, and the Indians are better at that. (Especially with no sabres.) End of Benteen's command.

This leaves Reno's demoralised bunch perched on the bluffs to be finished off at leisure; and the pack train doing its own Last Stand back on the trail. Custer's five companies are still on their own, and still get wiped out, but so do Benteen, Reno, and (most likely) McDougall/packs. No gain there.

(4) Alternatively, he joins Reno, does a bit of brisk morale-boosting, then immediately takes his own 3 companies towards Custer.

The packs are still adrift, but let's assume charitably that no harm comes to them and they join up OK with Reno.

Timing: we don't know for sure what Custer's doing at this point. He may already be scattered hither and yon. But let's make another charitable assumption, that things are still at the relatively stable stage along Battle Ridge. Custer quite probably is nowhere to be seen, having trotted off on his Ford D excursion. Benteen sees the three right wing companies. He also sees Indians getting round them on all sides, and terrain over which cavalry can't charge. He's going to have to fight his way through to them via nasty ridges and coulees. Being Benteen, he'll no doubt give it the old college try. Will he succeed? Possibly, though with considerable losses. His attempt will take some of the pressure off C, I & L, so we might avoid the domino-effect collapse; if so, we now have six companies -- or remnants thereof, with wounded -- occupying Battle Ridge. This might give the Indians something to think about, but the cavalry are still stymied; they can't make an aggressive move in toto because they can't abandon their wounded. And they can't look forward to making a very long defensive stand because Benteen has thoughtlessly rushed ahead without bringing the packs and thus a fresh ammo supply. The best they can do is set up a field hospital and defensive perimeter at a suitable point (Calhoun Hill, maybe?), while whatever companies can be spared -- let's say three? four at most? -- can attempt to manoeuvre.

But -- where to? If five couldn't attack the village, three (or four) can't. Custer might think six can, and might lead the reunited force back to Ford D; but then the Calhoun Hill wounded/guard are isolated and easy meat. He'd have to leave them some sort of cover. So once again, his force is strung out piecemeal and can be destroyed in detail. It all depends on his mindset. If he now has the wit to realise he's on the defensive, he could possibly, with this augmented force, manage a fighting retreat. But if he couldn't admit defeat with only five companies, is he likely to now he has eight? So ... no gain there. Same ending.

The only way there'd be a better outcome -- I think -- is if, as Red Horse suggested they would, the Indians turned tail and fled the moment they saw more troops coming from Weir Point. But after their routing of Reno, that seems like a long shot ...

Anyone else see better consequences?

[AZ Ranger]

Good job Elizabeth and I am sure someone will. It is really is simple you can't win on that day but you could have lived to fight another day which wasthe Benteen alternative.