A couple puzzling points

[wild]

Hi Mike
Whilst I really dislike the way Wild throws accusations of murder
Is it the accusation or the method used which you dislike?
Benteen is a minor historical figure not some ethnic saint venerated by a devoted nation above and beyond accusations.
We debate the actions of our heros at the LBH and attach lables to them ---couragious,incompetant,eccentric etc.If the totality of Benteen actions amount to murder why not describe it thus?
Slan

[elisabeth]

The totality of Custer's actions amount to murder, too. Would you describe that thus?

[wild]

Very quickly Liz have to go to my Gaelic classes.
Sending Reno into the unknown and promising him support is right up there.
Oh can't wait to get you lot in Croke Park then we'll see a massacre.
Good luck

[elisabeth]

Wild, I'm sure you will! You've beaten us at most things. (We win, I think, only on hypocrisy and imperialism. Not a great boast!)

[crzhrs]

I'm sure many surviving officers second-guessed themselves/others after the battle. But at the time many felt what they had done was the right thing.

Hindsight is great . . . we do it all the time here. But the decisions made at the time were appropriate under the circumstances.

[mcaryf]

Hi Wild

The reason I do not like your accusation of murder is because it is based on your own unique interpretation of events and not allowing for the people at the time to have interpreted them differently and your scenarios rarely include the real complexities.

Just as a hypothetical example and not to start another discussion on it - you beleive that Benteen handed over his command to Reno when he arrived on the hill. At the time he thought the whole command was defeated and this was the remnant, thus reporting his command to Reno could be argued as technically the correct thing to do. Subsequently he discovers that the command was split but Custer is still possibly dead or defeated by then anyway so what is he now to do? His new commander says he is to stay on the Hill and help defend it and then departs. Evidence starts to accumulate that Custer might not be dead after all. Benteen therefore departs looking for Custer, the Indians return and overrun the now undefended hill. If Custer was in fact already dead when Benteen left the hill is Benteen guilty of murder in this case because he disobeyed a senior officer's order and as a result men died?

I merely use this hypothetical example to show the difficulty that Benteen faced. Things were not so clear cut that you can use accusations as you do and I personally hate to see the records of brave men besmirched in this way unless there is categoric proof of some dereliction of duty or ulterior motive. In this case there is not and nor is there in the case of Custer. People die in war, sometimes as a result of poor judgement or even deliberate policy for "suicide missions" but I do not accept that you can use the word murder even in these cases unless the death of a specific individual or individuals was the specific intention rather than the success of the mission.

Regards

Mike

[harpskiddie]

Sometimes the death of a specific person or persons is the sole mission. But you are generally correct, Mike. Stuff happens. In a war, the stuff is usually dead or maimed soldiers [and civilians].

You know I don't share your opinion of Benteen; but I wouldn't call him a murderer.

Gordie

[wild]

but I do not accept that you can use the word murder even in these cases unless the death of a specific individual or individuals was the specific intention rather than the success of the mission.
Deriliction of duty can result in a whole range of consequences.The person guilty of such an offense is responsible for the worst possible scenario if it should occur.By neglecting to inform Custer that his reinforcements would not reach him as requested Benteen was responsible for removing an option which Custer had .This negligance contributed to Custer's annilation.
You highlight the complexities faced by a commander in battle.These complexities are ameliorated by communication.How could any situation faced by Benteen excuse him from communicating critical alterations to his CO?
No doubt you have heard of the film "A PERFECT STORM" well here we had the perfect military blunder.An not a very nice person in command dependent on a smart ass for support.A plethora of mistakes and negligance all came together choreographed by the Laurel and Hardy of the US cavalry between them guarenteed all would end in tears.

I personally hate to see the records of brave men besmirched in this way
Brave men died because of these two.And the one man who did his job that day is viewed with patronising sympathy by two camps who offer us two spurious heros.
Beat regards

[markland]

wild said:

but I do not accept that you can use the word murder even in these cases unless the death of a specific individual or individuals was the specific intention rather than the success of the mission.
Deriliction of duty can result in a whole range of consequences.The person guilty of such an offense is responsible for the worst possible scenario if it should occur.By neglecting to inform Custer that his reinforcements would not reach him as requested Benteen was responsible for removing an option which Custer had .This negligance contributed to Custer's annilation.
You highlight the complexities faced by a commander in battle.These complexities are ameliorated by communication.How could any situation faced by Benteen excuse him from communicating critical alterations to his CO?
No doubt you have heard of the film "A PERFECT STORM" well here we had the perfect military blunder.An not a very nice person in command dependent on a smart ass for support.A plethora of mistakes and negligance all came together choreographed by the Laurel and Hardy of the US cavalry between them guarenteed all would end in tears.

I personally hate to see the records of brave men besmirched in this way
Brave men died because of these two.And the one man who did his job that day is viewed with patronising sympathy by two camps who offer us two spurious heros.
Beat regards

Wild is throwing out a red herring, very similar to his genocide blabber.

Anyone who has read a modicum of military history realizes that soldiers and officers have died throughout history due to idiotic/asinine/self-serving/ill-informed decisions by senior officers. The Custer Cluster was not unique by any stretch of the imagination.

Throwing the word "murder" out there is only an attempt to divert the blame from where it should lie.

Be good,

Claw

[AZ Ranger]

Claw

Billy are you getting any better?

AZ Ranger

[wild]

Hindsight is great . . . we do it all the time here. But the decisions made at the time were appropriate under the circumstances.
Hindsight is not required when negligence and deriliction of duty are involved.They do not require consequences.They are stand alone offences.


Wild is throwing out a red herring, very similar to his genocide blabber.
Focasing on one of the main characters and highlighting his crimes of ommission is not a red herring.


Throwing the word "murder" out there is only an attempt to divert the blame from where it should lie.
On the contrary the blame lies with two men but people like your goodself are so attached to one camp or the other that they espouse a very blinkered rationale.

Closer examination reveals that of the 3 main characters only Reno desplayed anything resembling professionalism.He is the one who went into the valley and survived.He is the one who fought in two of the main actions.Both Custer and Benteen deserted him at critical moments to fend for himself.Benteen never came under the same pressure as did Reno yet his decision making was appaling.
Let Benteen take his rightful and long over due place among histories scoundrals.

[crzhrs]

Custer failed to notify Benteen of a change in plans. He failed to recall or send a messenger to Benteen informing him that Indians had been sighted and an attack order issued.

Custer's failure to immediately notify Benteen resulted in Reno's rout and Custer's death.

Kinda plain to me.

[wild]

Custer failed to notify Benteen of a change in plans.
You are the only one to suggest Custer had a plan

He failed to recall or send a messenger to Benteen informing him that Indians had been sighted and an attack order issued What does big village mean?

Custer's failure to immediately notify Benteen resulted in Reno's rout and Custer's death
Not your best effort.A bit childish.

Compairing two of the most controversial decisions made that day Reno's retreat from the timber and Benteen's decision to halt on Reno Hill.Reno's decision was made under the most terrifying circumstances ,Benteen's was a cool calm calculating decision.
Failure to accept that Benteen had his own agenda results in a distorted view of the dynamics which culminated in the destruction of Custer's command.
Slan

[crzhrs]

Custer had no plan? He ordered Benteen to scout for villages and or Indians. He ordered Reno to attack fleeing Indians and/or village and he would be supported by Custer.

Sounds like a game plan to me.

By not informing Benteen of sighting running Indians and ordering Reno to attack them (why else would the military be out there?) left Benteen completely in the dark as to what was going on. In my mind that was a major mistake . . . and Custer only informed Benteen when he needed help, not Reno . . . and that was with a cryptic message that could have many meanings.

And just exactly was Benteen's "agenda"?

[wild]

And just exactly was Benteen's "agenda"?
Just borrowed the following from another thread[posted by Liam I
think]

because officers less in rank, and men equal in valor, generously paid the penalty of his rashness, and redeemed his mistakes with the dogged valor of true soldiers."
Benteen's performance and actions indicate he was one soldier who was not going pay the price of Custer's redemption.

Sounds like a game plan to me
A plan is a set of predetermined actions to which all participants are party .Because there was a series of orders followed by actions does not mean that there was a plan.