A couple puzzling points

[alanw]

I find it difficult to understand why Benteen failed to support Custer. Could you imagine the possible aftermath - 'Benteen rescues Custer'. Talk about egg on your face for Custer.

Alan

[AZ Ranger]

I agree Elizabeth. Benteen didn't like what he perceived as Custer's style at Washita. He certainly wasn't going to emulate something he didn't like in Custer. Custer did not know if Benteen was engaged or not when he sent the order. He should not formulate any plan of further action requiring Benteen to be with him until Benteen reported to him. If there was enough time to allow for Martin to come back then Custer should have pulled back to join up with Benteen and the packs and then put whatever plan B,C,D was needed.

An alternative is that Custer only wanted Benteen to come to the village and get engaged and make sure the packs were OK. If Custer wanted him to report to him the order could be clearer. It would not matter about the size of the village if you are ordered to report to the commander in clear direction.

Benteen - Report to HQ for orders

AZ Ranger

[AZ Ranger]

I find it difficult to understand why Benteen failed to support Custer. Could you imagine the possible aftermath - 'Benteen rescues Custer'. Talk about egg on your face for Custer.

Alan

Hi Alan

That has long been a talking point of DC's regarding what the outcome of saving Custer by Benteen would have been. That Benteen could have done for Custer what was not done at Washita would have been a coup for Benteen. The suggestion that a good officer like Benteen did not do in hindsight what everyone thought that he should do does not make his decisions wrong when he made them. He didn't have to like Custer to do what he thought was right. He was an officer in the US cavalry with an outstanding record.

AZ Ranger

[Dark Cloud]

That's been a point all along, alanw. Contrary to Custerphile venom, the fifty pound feather for either Reno or Benteen was rescuing Custer, not letting him die: all the pluses with none of the rather problematic downsides of allowing fellow soldiers and friends to die in sight when you could save them, and this over some vague pique. A problematic downside would be your inevitable and deserved fragging, probably by that same sharpshooting Indian that nailed the sobbing soldier who didn't make the charge with Benteen the next day. Remarkable coincidence, that. And good shooting, hitting him between the eyes and all considering none of the upright soldiers charging was nicked whatsoever.

Construing your statement as written, though, suggests you're serious. And this again appeals to my question: at what point does the mission of the 7th change to Saving General Custer Vs. its current one? Staying in being to fight again vs. melodramatic surge to .........what? Did they have enough to drive off the Sioux and Cheyenne from the dehorsed, wounded, and dead in Custer's group? And then, having weakened those left with Reno for his own wounded and dehorsed, you have two groups immobile because of casualties, only one cannot sustain a fight for long with no ammo. This embarrassment would likely be erased by the prompt action of the Sioux.

I'm unaware of any doctrine, order, or military tradition - there certainly is a literary tradition - for soldiers to unfailingly rush to the flag to die in each other's company for no particular reason. If there is, what is it, and explain why the regiment was somehow under an obligation to play Roland rather than get the job done, if not today, than later.

[wild]

Hi Liz
. but mere dislike is a rather feeble motive for murdering even one man,
I agree,however it is a motive for sulking,working to rule and passive insubordination.I don't know what profession you are in but this behavior is very common in the work place.Benteen who "disliked "Custer had made a suggestion in the presence of other officers about keeping the regiment together .This suggestion was curtly dismissed.This probably stung Benteen all the more because he was not a captain but a colonel.The most basic of man management rules says you do not humiliate a man in front of others by dismissing his suggestions.
All the passiveness and negligence displayed by Benteen indicates that he was allowing Custer reap the fruits of his stupidity.In any competive envoirnment be it business or military lack of communication is lethal.And Benteen was not talking to anyone that day.
Not knowing the consequences of his non cooperation does not excuse him.Custer lived out at the edge.All that was required to queer his pitch was a little non cooperation.

at what point does the mission of the 7th change to Saving General Custer Vs. its current one?
That's the old "have you stopped beating your wife"classic.Expected something more subtle.
Benteen changed the mission to one of saving Reno.At 4.20 Custer was still in the field.The mission was still on.Benteen had no reason to believe that it was terminated.The very least he could have done was inform Custer that he need not expect reinforcements or ammo and allow him to take some kind of avoiding action.

And then, having weakened those left with Reno for his own wounded and dehorsed,
This very action was triggered by Weir at a even more dangerious stage of the battle


I'm unaware of any doctrine, order, or military tradition - there certainly is a literary tradition - for soldiers to unfailingly rush to the flag to die in each other's company for no particular reason.
Let's put it this way.Having terminated the mission would it not have been of passing interest to the other parties to the mission that it was in fact terminated?I mean is it not possible that the packs were merrily wending their way across country oblivious of Benteen's little figarie.

[wild]

Hi Mike
The scenarios are limitless for Custer's movements after Martin leaves him.Your's are as good as any but cannot be used to disprove Custer was not waiting for Benteen.There was absolutely nothing else on.
Regards

[elisabeth]

Wild,

I wouldn't disagree for a moment about the sulking and the working to rule. (Nor about Custer's appalling man-management techniques.) But the most you can get Benteen on for that is negligent homicide. "Murder" is pushing it a bit!

Re the waiting-for-Benteen scenario: the baffling thing is that it must have dawned on Custer, when Benteen didn't appear within the expected time-frame, that something had gone wrong. Whatever else can be said about Custer, he wasn't totally dumb. Once he realised his reinforcements weren't coming, you'd expect him to switch to a Plan B that took account of this fact -- like retreat, or dig in, or something faintly sensible. Instead, he appears to carry on as if he thought five companies were enough. Benteen's non-appearance may be one factor in the defeat; but Custer's failure to react realistically to it is surely another?

[mcaryf]

Whilst I really dislike the way Wild throws accusations of murder about there is an interesting question re what Benteen was actually doing once he arrived on Reno Hill until he moved towards Weir Point.

The overall answer which I am broadly happy to defend is that he was waiting for the pack train to come up as per Custer's last order. However, within that it is interesting to speculate.

He actually meets Reno at some time between 4.10 and 4.20 when Reno comes to meet him and there is some record of the exchanges between them with Benteen showing the Custer note and inquiring about Custer's whereabouts. All of this can reasonably take some minutes. Godfrey's battalion supposedly arrives at 4.20 and Weir's a little later as Weir did go to Ford A. Despite his testimony I think Benteen was mistaken in saying he went to Ford A, my guess is he went near to the "ford" where Reno's men fled across the LBH.

There is a period when the Indians are skirmished away from the immediate vicinity and I guess the horses have to be placed in some safer area. Some of the Indians in the valley floor appear to be moving towards Ford B.

My guess is that Benteen's concern is whether the position will be attacked or whether the pack train might be threatened. If he thinks more about Custer he will have assumed that he has already attacked the village (Martini was despatched nearly an hour previously) and has been beaten off as Reno was or else why are the Indians still on the valley floor.

All this will keep him pretty busy until about 4.30. At this stage some people, maybe him as well, hear firing down river and most of the Indians depart North. Reno abruptly places him in command (or perhaps he does not even do that formally) and departs to look for his dead and injured.

Benteen now has two more things to think about - first is Custer still actively attacking or is he being attacked in a defensive position and second having seen Reno rush off is he actually in a fit state to be still in command of his battalion or the force if it is unified. The answer to both these questions would require him to talk to Reno's senior officers to determine what they might have seen or heard of Custer (e.g. was he fighting earlier) and how had Reno been conducting himself since the fight started. Thus if I was Benteen I would now take some time to talk with French and Moylan. I am not aware of any record of this happening but the record is surprisingly quiet as to what Benteen was actually doing. Neither Godfrey nor Edgerley mention talking to Benteen at this stage. Moylan's company is not in very good shape to do much so I am guessing that, if Reno is still unfit for command on his return, French agrees he will go with Benteen wherever he decides whilst Moylan will look after the wounded.

I am assuming that all three of them would feel that they should try to link back up with Custer once they have the pack train up. I should note that if they do think Custer has already been repelled once then they would judge that the ammunition packs would be very important to him. Previously I would guess that Benteen interpreted the "bring packs" order as Custer wanting him to give the packs extra escort.

Reno returns and has an altercation with Weir clearly indicating that he has no intention of trying to find Custer or re-enter the battle. This would confirm any plan that Benteen had to usurp Reno's authority. Thus once the packs are up Benteen and French lead their men out towards Weir Point with Moylan staying behind.

I guess it is not in anybody's interest to reveal if this is what happened but if you try to think yourself into Benteen's shoes it does make some sense.

It really depends when you think the Custer battle finished for you to determine if the delay entailed in the above theory had an impact. My guess is that the major fighting for Custer's command was finished by 5.15pm and that the result was already decided by 5pm. If Benteen had despatched Weir's company from Reno Hill at 4.30pm to observe from Weir Point, Weir would probably have taken 20 minutes or so to form up his company and move there arriving about 4.50pm. In practice all this would mean would be some additional eye witness account of the battle.

If of course you go along with Greg Michno's timings then there might have been more opportunity for some of Custer's command to flee towards Weir.

All this is speculation but are there any accounts that indicate Benteen and French plus possibly Moylan got together when Reno left the hill?

Regards

Mike

[elisabeth]

Mike,

Good question re what Benteen was actually doing all that time.

Seems doubtful he'd have bothered conferring much with Moylan; as quoted in the Moylan thread, the first thing he saw when he got to Reno Hill was "the gallantly-moustached captain of Co. A blubbering like a whipped urchin". It might have taken him some time to establish which, if any, of Reno's officers was in a fit state to do anything at all, and thus what his options were ...

On the other hand -- Benteen always portrays himself as Mr. Capable, serenely unflappable, but is it possible that he too was a bit shaken by all this? Suppose your attack-from-the-west theory is correct: Benteen belatedly realises that Custer meant him to be part of a three-pronged attack. By deciding he was being sent on a fool's errand, and turning back, he's fatally compromised the strategy. It wouldn't be surprising if he went into a kind of shock for a bit on discovering how far he's misread things?

[harpskiddie]

Mike:

Godfrey mentions a group of officers standing together on the bluffs, and Moylan commenting about Custer's having made the biggest mistake of his life, but I don't recall him giving a time frame for this event [obviously it was before the general advance to Weir Point]. What Benteen waa doing during the interval is debatable, but he apparently was sufficiently busy to miss Weir's going off 'on his own hook' since he had to ask where the company was.

I doubt that he was actively plotting to usurp Reno's command; but I suppose one could find something to support that scenario. If it happened, nobody would be likely to admit to it - although the question of whose orders to follow did arise later on, according to Godfrey .

Gordie

BTW, Weir didn't form up his company. He rode of with just his orderly, and Edgerly followed him, thinking Weir had been given authorization for the move.

[mcaryf]

Hi Elisabeth

I am not sure that my theory of Benteen's intended role to enter the valley by a SW route would make a huge amount of difference to his feelings. It was not really possible for him to get to the valley in time so no blame attaches to that.

However, I would not rule out your idea of Benteen being a bit shaken himself. He has after all just had to take a decision to ride by and just watch whilst a dozen or so men are butchered. He has found a senior officer in a state of considerable nervous excitement and others clearly shattered. His commanding officer is nowhere to be seen but most probably has his command in a similarly defeated state. No doubt there are some wounded men crying out nearby and not least he knows there are 1,000 or so warriors and probably more to come whom he will eventually have to fight! A pretty daunting combination for even the hardiest soul!

Hi Gordie

My Weir advance scenario was how long it might have taken if Benteen had ordered it so Weir would have taken his own company.

McDougall subsequently claimed that he suggested to Benteen that Benteen take effective command but his comments as to what happened when are pretty well all over the place.

Regards

Mike

[crzhrs]

Whether Benteen was ever 'shaken' when he came upon Reno's command will never be known. I don't believe he gave the impression of being shaken or shocked by what he saw.

But Benteen did have a poker face . . . and always acted cool, calm, and collected. If he could take on Custer, he could handle anything. And as we know, he was the one who rallied the remainder of the command to make a stand against several thousand warriors trying to get at them.

[elisabeth]

I wasn't thinking so much of him being shaken at what he saw; more, shaken at discovering he'd made a wrong decision. (He was used to being right at all times!) The western approach idea might be one -- after all, he might not know for sure that it would have taken him too long to get to the valley; he might also feel he'd loused up by deciding not to cross Ford A and tackle the Indians. At the time, he thought quite reasonably that he was seeing the whole regiment whipped, so he had no option but to join its remnants on the bluffs. Once there, he realises the bulk of the regiment must be engaged somewhere else. Even if he doesn't know exactly where, he might well feel that had he charged the Indians, it might have made a crucial difference to whatever was going on downstream ...?

[wild]

Hi Liz
I wouldn't disagree for a moment about the sulking and the working to rule. (Nor about Custer's appalling man-management techniques.) But the most you can get Benteen on for that is negligent homicide. "Murder" is pushing it a bit.
In a routine peaceful workplace I would agree.On a battlefield it is murder.

Re the waiting-for-Benteen scenario: the baffling thing is that it must have dawned on Custer, when Benteen didn't appear within the expected time-frame, that something had gone wrong. [/b]Whatever else can be said about Custer, he wasn't totally dumb. [/i]
What happened to Custer was quick and painful but up till then he could still hope for Benteen's arrival.The realisation that he was up ***** creek coincided with the arrival of the locals.

[Tony]

I have just posted a theory under "Custer never sent for Packs" concerning Custer's movements after MTC---I would like some feedback as to what everyone thinks, as it involves my son's history paper as well--Thank You