A couple puzzling points

[wild]

Mike
In order for a commander to direct his forces he must know where they are.
Benteen terminated his recce and was returning to the main column.This vital information he failed to relay to Custer.
The arrival of two messengers [one directly to him]indicated that the regiment had made contact with the Indians.He still fails to contact Custer.
Boston is just an excuse used by apologists for Benteen's dereliction of duty.
If Benteens battalion engaged the Indians it was so insignificant that it does not appear in his report.
An irrational Weir is no excuse for Benteen's behaviour in allowing a shambles to ensue and for ignoring [and later boasting of it]Reno's recall order.

Your idea of Benteen taking his men or possibly going himself alone to Weir Point by 4.30pm is obviously unrealistic.
From where Benteen receives the message at 3.58 from Martin to Weir Point is 3.5 miles aprox.It is not beyond the bounds of possibility to have a unit on Weir Point on or about 4.30.
I know that 4.30 is probably the very best time possible but I suggest it as a comparison against the 5.30 when Benteen did in fact arrive on the point.
Slan

[wild]

From the point where he terminated his recce to the defence of Reno Hill we are dealing with a man who is not a team player.I have listed a dozen items of wilful negligance by Benteen.Two could be dismissed as coincidence but a dozen is enemy action.There is no doubt but that Benteen hated Custer with a vengence.Having rejected his suggestion to keep the regiment together it is easy to understand Benteen's sullen reaction."Right stew in your own juice"
Not sending a messenger through to Custer to inform him that no ammo or reinforcements would reach him and that they had in fact been handed over to Reno was corporate mass murder .

[AZ Ranger]

From the point where he terminated his recce to the defence of Reno Hill we are dealing with a man who is not a team player.I have listed a dozen items of wilful negligance by Benteen.Two could be dismissed as coincidence but a dozen is enemy action.There is no doubt but that Benteen hated Custer with a vengence.Having rejected his suggestion to keep the regiment together it is easy to understand Benteen's sullen reaction."Right stew in your own juice"
Not sending a messenger through to Custer to inform him that no ammo or reinforcements would reach him and that they had in fact been handed over to Reno was corporate mass murder .

If this is true Benteen would have to know Custer would not make it back. Is there any basis that Benteen knew Custer was dead of couldn't survive without his assistance. Or was he going to say Oops if Custer made it back if what he did was so clearly wrong.

AZ Ranger

[wild]

If this is true Benteen would have to know Custer would not make it back. Is there any basis that Benteen knew Custer was dead of couldn't survive without his assistance. Or was he going to say Oops if Custer made it back if what he did was so clearly wrong.
The ammo and reinforcements would have doubled Custer's force.He had two options wait for Benteen or retreat.Benteen removed one option without informing Custer.Waiting in expectation of reinforcements which never arrived doomed Custer.
I do not believe Benteen was incompetant .He knew the strenght of Custer's force and that of the Indians.He knew why Custer called for reinforcements yet he excuses his actions with a flippant "Custer could look after himself".

[mcaryf]

Hi Wild

Unfortunately it seems your posts have started to go somewhat over the top with accusations of corporate mass murder.

I will address first your point about Benteen rushing to Weir Point by 4.30pm.

You seem to be using your hindsight knowledge of events, which Benteen did not have, to insist that he should suddenly dash there. The best information Benteen had from Custer's messenger was that Custer would be in or attacking the Village, thus if anything, Benteen should go as fast as he can to the Village rather than turning away from it to head towards Weir Point.

The only two reasons why Benteen ended up on Reno Hill were first because there were rather too many Indians between him and the Village by the direct route and second Reno's men had retreated up there. Thus he had already effectively been turned away from where he thought Custer was. When evidence started to accumulate that Custer might actually be to the North of Reno Hill and the pack train started to come up, Benteen did move in that direction but again large numbers of Indians prevented a further advance in that direction.

I will now address your corporate mass murder suggestion.

I have already pointed out to you that most expert opinion considers that Custer's own column was doomed once it went down Cedar Couley regardless of what Reno or Benteen did, thus your accusations of corporate mass murder are frankly absurd as well as distasteful.

At any time up until 5.15pm Custer knew that Benteen could not get to him with the packs for at least 30 minutes because he had a line of sight to the area 2 miles or so away where evidence of Benteen's presence would appear, namely Weir Point. Thus Custer already had enough information on which to base a decision as to whether he should stay or retreat.

In the event, he chose to ride away from the direction from which Benteen might be coming.

My guess is that Custer did not beleive the Indians would come and fight him and thought that his presence might contain them from heading East. If I am right, it was this misjudgement by Custer that doomed all his men. However, I certainly would not start hurling accusations of mass murder at him. It was a judgement he made based on previous experience and unfortunately for him it proved to be wrong on the day.

Before I really studied the battle I used to think that Custer was just a glory hunter. I have completely changed my mind since then and whilst I reckon, with the benefit of hindsight, he did make some mistakes, in my judgement there were generally sensible reasons why he did what he did. I have a similar view of Reno and Benteen, both of them also made mistakes but in general these were understandable and they also did a lot of things that turned out for the best.

Studying military history is one of my hobbies. It is often the case with the benefit of hindsight, that armchair generals such as ourselves can identify better options that could have been taken. However, I try never to forget that the people who actually had to take the decisions at the time, often with imperfect information, knew that lives would be lost if they got things wrong. This is not a responsibility that I would have wanted for myself therefore I take care not to make wild accusations (pun intended) of the sort you have chosen to deploy on this occasion.

Regards

Mike.

[wild]

Further .There is no evidence of anything resembling an attack having been made by Custer on the village.People have offered their favourate manoeuvers to construct a scenario to occupy Custer for 1&1/2 hours when in fact he could achieve nothing until Benteen arrived.
If as appears possible and more likely probable Custer was awaiting the arrival of Benteen the best place to hide a battalion from the village was the reverse slope on Battle ridge where most of his officers and troops were found.
Reno was the patsy in this tragedy.How ironic that slippy tit Benteen could appear as the double saviour of Reno ,first on the Hill then in the court.
Benteen had decided to hang Custer out to dry.He describes how when called to a meeting with Custer he first checked his revolver as he had no intention of taking any nonsense from him.A pity he did not use this method to settle his difference instead of fragging the entire regiment in order to get him.

[wild]

Hi Mike
Blaming the messenger is not new and you take far too many liberties with this incident.Martin knew where he had left the column.Reno knew where the village was and it was obvious that Custer was not with Reno.So navagation towards Custer's last known position was not a problem.
No preparation was made for a move North to Custer.It was triggered suddently by Weir and resembled a leaderless rabble.But even as Benteen halted at Reno Hill no messenger was sent forward to report to Custer.


I have already pointed out to you that most expert opinion considers that Custer's own column was doomed once it went down Cedar Couley regardless of what Reno or Benteen did, thus your accusations of corporate mass murder are frankly absurd as well as distasteful.
Once Benteen removed any chance of Custer's survival ,once he allowed him to think reinforcements were on the way he was guilty of dereliction of duty resulting in the deaths of Custer and his command.If that dereliction is wilful it is murder.Benteen hangs himself by stating that "Custer could look after himself".

However, I try never to forget that the people who actually had to take the decisions at the time, often with imperfect information, knew that lives would be lost if they got things wrong. This is not a responsibility that I would have wanted for myself therefore I take care not to make wild accusations (pun intended) of the sort you have chosen to deploy on this occasion.
I think Benteen has always been the beneficiary of this laudable attitude while Custer and Reno have suffered the slings and arrows with Reno having to defend himself in court.
I want to show that Benteen a hater of Custer has serious questions to answer.
Best Regards

[AZ Ranger]

If this is true Benteen would have to know Custer would not make it back. Is there any basis that Benteen knew Custer was dead of couldn't survive without his assistance. Or was he going to say Oops if Custer made it back if what he did was so clearly wrong.
The ammo and reinforcements would have doubled Custer's force.He had two options wait for Benteen or retreat.Benteen removed one option without informing Custer.Waiting in expectation of reinforcements which never arrived doomed Custer.
I do not believe Benteen was incompetant .He knew the strenght of Custer's force and that of the Indians.He knew why Custer called for reinforcements yet he excuses his actions with a flippant "Custer could look after himself".

The question that you did not answer was did Benteen think Custer was dead or had no chance of survival if he didn't go to him? If he thought Custer might survive he would have to face charges for failing to obey. Yet he was cleared just as much as Reno at the board of inquiry. I don't think Benteen thought he was anywhere near what you are describing when did what he did.

AZ Ranger

[Dark Cloud]

Again: what is the requirement to go to the sound of firing in bulk and risk regiment and mission? And when did the 7th's mission change?

[wild]

AZ

The question that you did not answer was did Benteen think Custer was dead or had no chance of survival if he didn't go to him?
I have no doubt that he knew Custer was in trouble.How much is not an issue .The consequences of Benteen's negligence could range from a bullet graze up to total annihilation.Benteen as the recipent of Custer's order is responsible for all consequences resulting from non compliance with that order.
Cheers

[AZ Ranger]

AZ

The question that you did not answer was did Benteen think Custer was dead or had no chance of survival if he didn't go to him?
I have no doubt that he knew Custer was in trouble.How much is not an issue .The consequences of Benteen's negligence could range from a bullet graze up to total annihilation.Benteen as the recipent of Custer's order is responsible for all consequences resulting from non compliance with that order.
Cheers

Wild - My point is wouldn't Benteen have to answer to Custer if Custer survived. He has nothing but using his own judgment to defend himself.

AZ Ranger

[wild]

DC
Again: what is the requirement to go to the sound of firing in bulk and risk regiment and mission? ?
Risk is the responsibility of the commander Custer.
And when did the 7th's mission change?
It was compromised when Benteen halted the reserves.
Very best regards

[wild]

Wild - My point is wouldn't Benteen have to answer to Custer if Custer survived. He has nothing but using his own judgment to defend himself.
He would have to explain why he did not at least communicate [or even attempt]to inform Custer of this critical turn in circumstances.

[mcaryf]

Hi Wild

I am sorry you appear to be misinformed about the whereabouts of the bodies of Custer's troops. He had positioned Calhoun in a clearly visible position on top of Calhoun Hill and this is where most of that company's bodies were found. Thus he had not attempted to conceal their presence.

The majority of the bodies of the whole force were not found on the reverse slope of Custer Ridge, most of them were to the West of the line of the ridge e.g. on LSH, along the SSL, in Deep Ravine (probably) and on Calhoun Hill.

The location where you apparently have Custer waiting for Benteen prior to launching an attack had positive disadvantages in that regard. It was the wrong side of the river and would require an opposed crossing to get into the Village. The Indians were already aware of Custer's presence there from his foray to Ford B and therefore were alerted to the possibility of an attack from that area. Thus, if he intended to re-unite his force, his best bet would have been to retrace his steps and find an opportunity for an unopposed crossing. The fact that he did not do so indicates to me that reunification was not his priority and that is why I think he had switched to a policy of containment where Benteen's presence to the South would actually be more of an advantage to him.

Regards

Mike

[elisabeth]

There's evidence that Benteen's fabled "hatred" of Custer came after the battle, and largely because of it. Before, he disliked the man, true ... but mere dislike is a rather feeble motive for murdering even one man, let alone some 200 others you have nothing against, and some of whom (e.g. Yates, Keogh, Dr. Lord) are good friends of yours.

Benteen made some mistakes, as did Reno, as did Custer. That's a long way from deliberate mass murder.