A couple puzzling points

[wild]

Mike it might take a few days to get back to you as I'm having problems here with computer but will return that's a promise.

That one was free Liam the next ones you pay for.
Cheers

[mcaryf]

Hi Gordie

The Benteen quote about Indians having the arc to the packs etc comes from his RCOI testimony and it was concerning the situation when he was on Reno Hill not Ash Creek.

The Ash Creek quote was to the effect that he felt it OK to proceed ahead of the packs so long as he kept himself between them and the Village.

Regards

Mike

[wild]

Mike
You asked me to outline what I would have done If I had been in Benteens place.
Ithink I can explain better my position if I set out the case against Benteen by way of an audit of his performance.

THE CASE AGAINST BENTEEN

1 Failure to inform Custer that he had terminated his recce and was returning to the column,

2 Failure to inform Custer of his position after arrival Kanipe with word of regiments contact with Indians.

3 Failure to inform packs of order requiring them to increase their pace.Failure yet again to inform Custer of relative position of packs and his unit.

4 Failure to bring order or consolidate position on Reno Hill.

5 Failure to inform Custer that he was halting both units, packs and his unit on Reno hill.

6 Allowing his own squadron to disintregate.

7 Failure to yet again inform packs as to their urgent need forward.

8 Acquiescence in shambles advance to Weir Point.

9 Failure to attempt to make contact with either Custer or Terry.

Benteen up to the defence of Reno Hill kept Custer in ignorance of his movements and intentions.At all times he acted in neither a proactive or reactive manner but maintained a passive posture.
Benteens regiment was going into action where the odds were stacked against them where faiure to observe the basics of team work could and did result in disaster.
Slan

[wild]

First of all let me preface the following by stating that I'm innocent of any knowledge of the American military code as it applied in 1876 and base my critique of Benteen on my military experience this side of the pond.
Custer's order to Benteen was a lawful order.That order is unconditional.It does not outline any conditions under which it can be ignored or compromised.The order is Custer's responsibility along with all possible consequences arising from it and that includes Reno's situation.
Benteen's decision to "assist"Reno not only compromised Custer's options but took 4 troops and the spare ammo out of the battle.
Knowing the strenght of the enemy and that he would not be following Custer's order he did not think fit to inform Custer of this turn of events.
Custer's annihilation was contributed to by Benteen's criminal negligence.
Slan

[elisabeth]

Wild, let me in turn state that I have no military experience either side of the pond, so speak (as you know by now) from total ignorance.

However, I'm not convinced that a lawful order can't be disregarded in the light of changed circumstances. For instance, Varnum got the Medal of Honor for disobeying an order that would have led to another company's destruction. Citation:

tinyurl.com/v5eke

OK, that was 1890, not 1876, and maybe the code had changed in the intervening years ...

[shan]

Wild,

I think you have raised a very interesting point there, one that often gets overlooked in all the talk of who followed Weir when he moved towards Custer and when they actually got around to doing it, plus all the talk of who heard what and where etc.
Why, having seen the state Reno and his men were in, and having decided that he best course of action was to stay and try and assist him, didn't either of the two villains of this story send a courier to Custer telling him what was going on. Never mind that the courier couldn't get through, they, or he, would naturally have been forced to turn back, but had they been sent, at least we would have known that the attempt was made. Now I'm no army man, and I'm sure there are those out there in the know, but wouldn't this have been standard proceedure?

Fred,

Like most of us on this board I suspect, I have these little nuggets of information lying snuggled away somewhere in the old memory banks, information that refuses to tell me directly how I came by it, or how it came to be there, mumbling instead like some can't be bothered teenager, ' it's in one of those interminable books you've read, go and look it up.'
The business of Indians being up on the bluffs around the time Reno was also trying to get up there, is one such nugget. There is I'm sure, a couple of reports of someone warning Doctor De Wolf that there were Indians above, and that they were firing down on them just before he was hit and killed by those self same Indians.
Then there is a rumor in this brain of mine that I've read somewhere that a few Indians initially rode up Sharpshooter ridge, and having fired a few shots at Reno's men who were still arriving, turned and saw Custer's command through a gap the hills. A final itch in the mind also tells me that there, embedded in one piece of Indian testimony, {White Bull?} is a reference to them using Weir Point as a more direct route to Custer.
Lastly of course, there is the mysterious whereabouts of Wolf Tooth's men. The description of their attack is very hard to follow, but the likelihood seems to be that they initially swung South behind Custer's force, and were for a brief while, in the upper Medicine Tail Coulee area.
As for the bluffs, I don't think they were uniformly steep, Reno certainly found a way up through them as did the Ree's, and remember the three Crow actually had the audacity to go down and get themselves a drink in the middle of a battle, obviously convinced that should there be any danger, they could rapidly escape back up.
Shan

[wild]

Hi Liz
However, I'm not convinced that a lawful order can't be disregarded in the light of changed circumstances.
There were no circumstances which prevented Benteen proceeding beyond Reno Hill.
Varnam of course did not disobey orders.His action ensured that another unit could also withdraw.
Slan

[elisabeth]

Mmmm... he "disregarded" them. Is that so different?

[wild]

Hi Liz
Just going on the information on the site you put up.
He was ordered to withdraw but seeing another unit in danger of being cut off he charged thus allowing both units to withdraw.
The action he took enhanced the object of his orders.He improved on his orders.
Benteen took no such action.Delaying and ignoring very opportunity to comply with the letter and spirit of his orders.
Slan

[wild]

Benteen can be on Weir point at 4.30
Reno requires nothing more than a officer and a cuple of goods NCOs to sort things out and await resupply and reinforcement from the packs.There is nothing here a good dynamic officer cannot deal with while Benteen pushes on towards Custer.
Benteen on Weir point at 4.30 could have been the life line Custer required.
Custer must bear responsibility for the disaster but it required Benteen to compound his mistakes and recklessness.
Benteen has gotten off scot free because the pro Custer camp are so ridiculous in their claims,because it was Reno who had to face a court of inquiry and Benteen was seen as a saviour.He's the man who sets the house on fire in order to effect a daring rescue.
I have read that on the last night of the march Keogh had reserved a good camp site and invited Benteen to share it with him.Asimple act of comradeship.Read Benteen's correspondence with Goldin and see how he describes Keogh and the rest of his brother officers who died at the LBH.
Slan

[mcaryf]

Hi Wild

Thank you for your answer although it was not to the question I asked you. I will address your actual answers and then remind you what the question was:

You asked me to outline what I would have done If I had been in Benteens place.
I think I can explain better my position if I set out the case against Benteen by way of an audit of his performance.

THE CASE AGAINST BENTEEN

1 Failure to inform Custer that he had terminated his recce and was returning to the column,

Benteen knew Boston would, and we must presume did, inform Custer of Benteen's return to the trail, he had a fresh horse and would get there faster than any of Benteen's men. On the other hand Custer made no timely attempt of which we are aware to inform Benteen that he had (a) Located the village (b) Divided his command and (c) Launched an attack. All three pieces of information were vital but not sent.

2 Failure to inform Custer of his position after arrival Kanipe with word of regiment's contact with Indians.

We have no evidence other than Kanipe's doubtful testimony that he ever said anything to Benteen other than that he had a message for the commander of the pack train to speed up. We do have evidence that he may not even have delivered that message as McDougall denied getting it

3 Failure to inform packs of order requiring them to increase their pace.Failure yet again to inform Custer of relative position of packs and his unit.

The packs already had the message to speed up via Kanipe sent a few minutes before, thus another would be superfluous. I do, however, agree that a message should have been sent from Reno Hill earlier than it was to tell the packs to come there. However, I do not think this had any material impact on the outcome of the battles.

4 Failure to bring order or consolidate position on Reno Hill.

It was Benteen's men that drove off the Indians and established skirmish lines so I do not really understand your point.

5 Failure to inform Custer that he was halting both units, packs and his unit on Reno hill.

Please advise any evidence you have that Benteen halted the packs on Reno Hill. In fact as soon as the van of the packs was up Benteen moved forward himself to recce possible ways to move the command on

6 Allowing his own squadron to disintregate.

[Your use of the word disentegration is somewhat strong. Strictly speaking a squadron was a company so are you referring to Co H or the unauthorised advance of Captain Weir? If Weir, it seems likely from his later actions on the march back after the battle that he was becoming mentally deranged. I do not think you can hold Benteen responsible for Weir's eccentric behaviour, if anybody it was Custer who had put Weir under stress due to what Custer thought about Weir's inappropriate relationship with Custer's wife./i]

7 Failure to yet again inform packs as to their urgent need forward.

Agreed if this was to Reno Hill.

8 Acquiescence in shambles advance to Weir Point.

Benteen lead the remainder of his battalion forward to reunite it after Weir's unauthorised action. Thereafter he directed how the withdrawal should be covered but in his own words this did not go as well as he had hoped. Mainly because French and Weir fled backwards prematurely, Weir abandonning one of his own men. In the event,however, only one man was lost so I think it somewhat inappropriate to describe this move as a shambles on a day when the other two 7th Cavalry Column Commanders managed to lose 100% and about 50% respectively of their strengths

9 Failure to attempt to make contact with either Custer or Terry.

After Benteen's attempt to move and contact Custer ended at Weir Point the responsibility of command was clearly Reno's not Benteen's. Benteen had made an effort and Reno did try to get scouts to go out that night but unsuccessfully."

The point we were previously addressing was what Benteen should have done at 4.10pm which you did not answer. In a later post you implied that Benteen could have been at Weir Point by 4.30pm. Since Godfrey's company only arrived on Reno Hill at 4.20pm and Weir's arrived later than that, I can only assume that you expect Benteen to order his men to gallop at in excess of 10mph to Weir Point, leaving Reno and his men alone on the Hill with the 900 Indians on the valley floor. When the Indians would have seen this, they could only imagine that the cavalry were running away and move in to finish off Reno's shattered remnants and be ready to capture the train.

How do you reconcile this action with Custer's twice repeated command to bring the packs?

The gallop would also be away from the place (the Village) where Custer's messenger had told him that Custer was headed and away from where at least a significant number of the enemy could be seen to be.

It seems to me that Benteen would be liable for accusations of cowardice if he had followed your suggestions based only on the knowledge you know he had. If of course you want to give hiim the benefit of hindsight and knowledge of where Custer actually was then you might have a weak argument in favour of your suggestion although of course it would almost certainly have lead to the complete destruction of the 7th rather than just a part of it.

Regards

Mike

[elisabeth]

Wild,

To be fair, it's Benteen himself who tells us the story of Keogh's "simple act of comradeship". At length, and twice. And Keogh's one of the few people he's not rude about in the Benteen-Goldin Letters. (Mentions him only once, and then only in the context of Cooke transferring to Keogh's troop. No personal comments at all, good or bad.) So that's one charge that won't stand.

[wild]

So that's one charge that won't stand.
No but what will stand Liz is yours truly corrected.My thanks for that.

Mike
Your replies are never less than polite and always comprehensive if those qualities were allied to logic you would have the perfect repost.Unfortunately you have a predilection for the use of assumptions and excuses.Leave this smoke and mirrors for the Custer fantasists.

For example
Benteen knew Boston would, and we must presume did, inform Custer of Benteen's return to the trail,
Benteen sees a civilian and you assume that Benteen presumes he is going to Custer and will report Benteen's intentions and the consequences of this will be that Custer will be assured that his packs and reinforcements are on the way?
Does this not place on Benteen an even greater obligation to inform Custer that he has changed his mind?


We have no evidence other than Kanipe's doubtful testimony that he ever said anything to Benteen other than that he had a message for the commander of the pack train to speed up
And Benteen did not bother to inquire from him any details of the situation .Really difficult to believe that.

The packs already had the message to speed up via Kanipe sent a few minutes before, thus another would be superfluous.
Another excuse for Benteen's inaction.Second message emphasizes the urgency of the situation and indicates contact with Indians.Benteen did not allow the packs to react to this order.


It was Benteen's men that drove off the Indians and established skirmish lines so I do not really understand your point.
Benteen did not engage the enemy.He halted his command and other than distribute some ammo did nothing of any material benifit .Reno in fact had to send for the packs.


Benteen lead the remainder of his battalion forward to reunite it after Weir's unauthorised action.
Benteen was faced with a decision here whether to stick it out with Reno on the hill for all the reasons he had given for doing so in the first place or risk Weir getting through to Custer and lining up the guano for the fan.


Please advise any evidence you have that Benteen halted the packs on Reno Hill.The packs were placed under the command of Reno who had no intention of responding to Custer's order.

I do not think you can hold Benteen responsible for Weir's eccentric behaviour,
He compounded this 'eccentric' behaviour.
It's a good debating technique though.With smoke and mirrors an inconvienient hero can be rendered mad.


The point we were previously addressing was what Benteen should have done at 4.10pm which you did not answer.
Attempt immediately to open communications with Custer.Order ammo forward and consolidate Reno Hill.

In a later post you implied that Benteen could have been at Weir Point by 4.30pm. Since Godfrey's company only arrived on Reno Hill at 4.20pm and Weir's arrived later than that, I can only assume that you expect Benteen to order his men to gallop at in excess of 10mph to Weir Point,
When ordered the ammo packs made up 6 minutes on the rest of the train over a short distance.There is no doubt that if Reno had acted more positively there was enough slack time to allow him to reach Weir Point at 4.30.

leaving Reno and his men alone on the Hill with the 900 Indians on the valley floor.
Reno was safe at 4.10 to such an extent that he was able to return to the valley to search for LT H.

Slan

[harpskiddie]

Mike:

The move to Weir Point by Benteen was not an attempt to either contact or rescue Custer, nor was the move by Weir, nor that by Reno with the balance of the command. There were probably any number of different motives working on the various commanders mentioned, but I don't think any of them set out to contact or rescue Custer. The rationalizations and justifications came later, after it was kown that Custer and his five companies had perished.

Gordie

[mcaryf]

Hi Wild

I will just pick up on some of the inaccuracies in your last reply and leave the other debating points where I guess we just disagree.

It does seem there was no great dialogue between Kanipe and Benteen as Benteen was still unaware of the split between Custer and Reno after talking to Kanipe. Kanipe went down the column shouting to the effect that "we've got em boys" but it is not necessarily the case that he also said this to Benteen who was typically 200 yards ahead. Kanipe's own claim about his mission was that if he saw Benteen as well, he should tell him to come on but he was not directed to give Benteen the important information that should obviously have been sent to him and it appears he did not pass it on.

With respect to Weir's behaviour on the 25th - three times leaving the battalion to go his own way, do you think that normal for an officer? In addition how about his behaviour on the return journey after the battle? I hardly think these obvious indications of some sort of nervous breakdown can be described as smoke and mirrors.

Accoding to Edgerley's narrative (see TCM page 219) you are incorrect in saying that Benteen's men did not engage the enemy when they arrived on Reno Hill.

When ordered the ammo packs made up 6 minutes on the rest of the train over a short distance.There is no doubt that if Reno had acted more positively there was enough slack time to allow him to reach Weir Point at 4.30.

We are actually debating about Benteen rather than Reno. The Weir Point position is 1.25 miles from Reno Hill. Godfrey's company arrived on Reno Hill at 4.20pm and Weir after that (he had gone to Ford A). There were still Indians shooting into the position at this time who had to be driven off. Your idea of Benteen taking his men or possibly going himself alone to Weir Point by 4.30pm is obviously unrealistic.

You suggested that Reno went to look for Lt Hodgson at 4.10. John Gray has this move by Reno 15 or more minutes later. This would coincide with the movement away by the bulk of the Indians and therefore makes rather more sense than your suggestion.

Also addressing Gordie,

I think it is fairly clear that Weir's movement was some attempt to find out where Custer was and I do not know what contrary evidence you could have concerning this. I think one of Weir's sergeants had to restrain him from riding over to what he thought were some of Custer's men on Calhoun Hill but were actually Indians carrying guidons.

I do not suppose that anybody was thinking in terms of rescuing Custer but I am surprised if you think they were not trying to reopen communications with him. Reno sent Hare with orders to this effect to Weir.

Benteen's move was obviously for the purpose of determining what might be happening, further action would depend on that. He claimed he made some attempt at displaying his men on the bluff for Custer but it is hard to prove one way or the other what was his actual intention in taking them there. If he had just wanted to know for himself what was happening he need not have taken most of the remaining able bodied men with him.

Regards

Mike