A couple puzzling points

[wild]

crzhrs
I'm not saying men did not care about each other, but I wonder how many would risk their lives for someone they didn't respect . . .
You've put your finger on it.The regiment the martial manifestation of the nation is everything.Individuals such as Custer come and go.Politicians decide the flavour of the month cause.The profession of arms is a secular religion.

By 1876 there were not many professional soldiers in the military, especially enlisted men. Many were immigrants looking for a job, money, a place to sleep, eat, etc., learn English. Others were unsavory or even criminals looking to avoid arrest back East.
Very true but this is a reason not an excuse.
Slan

[AZ Ranger]

Not a good day for the American military?So another point to you.Unless others here say otherwise I take it that the US does not have a proud military tradition.

Can't speak for the rest but the United States Marine Corps does have a proud military tradition. I learned about it in bootcamp.

Semper Fi

[crzhrs]

<Weir asked permission to go but was refused.You are claiming the actions of others for Benteen's defence>

According to Edgerly Weir did not ask or get permission to go to Custer.

[AZ Ranger]

You've put your finger on it.The regiment the martial manifestation of the nation is everything.Individuals such as Custer come and go.Politicians decide the flavour of the month cause.The profession of arms is a secular religion.

Wild I think this good insight to the view of where you are coming from but not sure it applies in the United States. We were formed by standing up to and against the manifestation of the nation by military might. Hopefully we will never forget that fact. Our bill of rights protects us from the profession of arms as you describe it. "The regiment the martial manifestation of the nation is everything." The people of the United States are everything.

I think that any era may have more or less the feeling of the Regiment sentiments as you express. Certainly drafted soldiers for a short duration of service should have a deferent impression of belonging to the military as compared to someone desiring to be a professional soldier. Even with today's voluntary army there are a lot who joined to get college benefits, learn a skill, serve their country and exit.

I also believe that even a professional officer with all the qualities you would like still would be negligent if couldn't assess the make up of his troops both in motivation for being there and training. There is a difference between a high expected casualty rate operation(A lot of Custer's CW battles had high casualty rates which by the nature of the operations would have such rates) with a chance of success and a 100 % casualty rate which is always a defeat.



AZ Ranger

[mcaryf]

Yes but the Indians on the valley floor below Reno Hill were not in the Village they were within about 2 miles of where Benteen could expect the train to be.
3 miles is more accurate but you are suggesting that the Indians leave the Village under attack 6 miles in their rear--not likely.

We were talking about 4.10pm, as far as we know the Village was not under attack at this time and there was no reason why Benteen should imagine that it might be attacked in the immediate future. Thus the threat to the packs is very real until the Indians start to leave some 10 - 15 minutes later.

He asked both Martini and Reno where Custer was and would have reasonably assumed that Weir would send a message if Custer were in sight from Weir Point.
Weir asked permission to go but was refused.You are claiming the actions of others for Benteen's defence.

If you examine what I said you will see my point was that Benteen could reasonably expect that Weir, even though he left on his own hook, would send back a message if Custer was in sight.

Now this is where I think you need to do better in your attempt at criticism. This was not any trooper - this was Custer's chosen messenger to provide information to Benteen about what he was required to do.Martin a bugler with little knowledge of English and none of tactics was expected to explain the military situation 20 minutes after he left Custer and Benteen would heed this and disregard the actual message he carried.Please Mike.........

I repeat what I said, Martini was Custer's chosen method of communication thus any lack of communications capability is Custer's responsibility not Benteen's. The actual and correct knowledge Martini had was that Custer was moving fast and had been nearing the Village about 35 minutes previously . I do not think it unreasonable for anybody to have assumed that Custer would already have at least attempted an attack into the village by 4.10pm.

I have been thinking a bit more about Custer's message "Come on. Big Village. Be Quick.Bring Packs. PS Bring Packs. Now I will bow to any people here who claim they understand precisely the meaning of the military language of the era, however, to me as a layman this could read that Benteen was "to come on to the Village". Really the "come on" is superfluous in that Benteen already had orders to rejoin the main column so his status was that he was "coming on". Thus if the order is intended to change the status it must be to go to the Village!

Benteen did move once the packs were available to follow as per Custer's requirement and without letting the wounded prevent him from doing that.
He left Reno and the wounded to fend for themselves because he was afraid Weir would reach Custer before him.

Well Wild it does not seem Benteen can do anything right, you condemn him for leaving the wounded in one breath and for not leaving them in another. I think the timing of his movement had more to do with the arrival of the advance of the pack train than Weir who had remained static on his observation point.

In practice this is the approach he adopted.
In practice he sat on a hill and awaited relief.It is possible to Attribute all kinds of grandiose tactical schemes to him but I have never seen any evidence that he suggested such schemes himself.

I do not think the tactics Benteen followed were rocket science, clearly once he saw there was no way to reach wherever Custer was, he and Reno agreed on a reasonable defensive position and stayed there. They both knew Terry was expected the next day or shortly after. I do not really understand quite what you mean by saying he never suggested any such scheme, you only have to look at what he actually did.

Rather than you just responding to my suggestions as to my opinions concerning Benteen's actual actions and motivations why don't you set out in reasonable detail what you think Benteen should actually have done. Please do not just respond "obey orders" but give some detail as to what you think those orders meant and therefore the actions that should have been taken from 4.10pm onwards.

Regards

Mike

[wild]

We were talking about 4.10pm, as far as we know the Village was not under attack at this time
AND
I do not think it unreasonable for anybody to have assumed that Custer would already have at least attempted an attack into the village by 4.10pm.
Sorry Mike can you assist me with the above.
Here's my problem-----
You tell us Benteen was concerned about the packs because the village not being under attack leaves the Indians free to attack it.
You then tell us that it is reasonable to assume that the village is in fact under attack.
It does not make sense.
I will return to the other points and answer your questions shortly.
Slan

[wild]

cr
According to Edgerly Weir did not ask or get permission to go to Custer
Same difference he left his post without permission.
AZ
We were formed by standing up to and against the manifestation of the nation by military might.
I said the regiment/army is the martial manifestation of the nation in other words the military represent the nation and are subordinate to it.

[mcaryf]

We were talking about 4.10pm, as far as we know the Village was not under attack at this time
AND
I do not think it unreasonable for anybody to have assumed that Custer would already have at least attempted an attack into the village by 4.10pm.
Sorry Mike can you assist me with the above.
Here's my problem-----
You tell us Benteen was concerned about the packs because the village not being under attack leaves the Indians free to attack it.
You then tell us that it is reasonable to assume that the village is in fact under attack.
It does not make sense.

Hi Wild

Happy to help.

It is all a question of timing - one obvious and reasonable assumption for Benteen to make at 4.10pm would be that Custer has probably already attacked and failed. Another might be that there are enough Indians to handle both Custer and Reno at the same time. As it turned out what would have seemed a less likely possibility to Benteen ends up being apparently true, namely, that Custer never seriously attacks the Village at all.

In any event the situation confronting benteen was that he judged that he was not strong enough to attack the Indians on the valley floor by crossing the river but that from his position on Reno Hill he might still intervene to help the packs if the Indians started to cross themselves. His comment was to the effect that he could move along the chord whilst the Indians had to go round the arc of the circle to get to the train.

I await your reply to the final point on my last post with keen anticipation.

Regards

Mike

[wild]

It is all a question of timing - one obvious and reasonable assumption for Benteen to make at 4.10pm would be that Custer has probably already attacked and failed.
No I'm not allowing double assumptions.One is 50-50 what are the odds on being right on both accounts?

Another might be that there are enough Indians to handle both Custer and Reno at the same time.
Another assumption?

As it turned out what would have seemed a less likely possibility to Benteen ends up being apparently true, namely, that Custer never seriously attacks the Village at all.
Let's see if I get this straight.Benteen makes 3 assumptions but something entirely different in fact occurs?

His comment was to the effect that he could move along the chord whilst the Indians had to go round the arc of the circle to get to the train.
You are suggesting Benteen could determine all dimentions ie time and distance speed involving numerious forces?
Sorry Mike I can't compete at that level .You win hands down.

Best regards and thanks for the exchanges.
Slan

[AZ Ranger]

AZ
We were formed by standing up to and against the manifestation of the nation by military might.
I said the regiment/army is the martial manifestation of the nation in other words the military represent the nation and are subordinate to it. The people I referred to were not a nation until after the Revolutionary War and they defeated the martial manifestation of another nation.

Wild- I believe our military operations are subject to the current elected President which may or may not reflect the will of the people. I don't know if they had consensus of the nation for the Indian Wars. The people of this nation can change such decisions only after the fact through elections. This is what is confusing about being subordinate to the nation and doing your patriotic duty.

When I went to Viet Nam in 1969, I felt the majority of the nation was against the war. My personal beliefs and maybe this is your point also is that in representing the United States in the Marine Corps I would give them the best I could do. I still believe once a marine always a marine. If your martial manifestation of the nation is what should be correct and not always politically correct than we agree. I just feel our soldiers in the Revolutionary War and both sides of the Civil War, WWI, WWII felt that they were the manifestation of the nation they represented. I am not sure the Indians Wars were the martial manifestation of the nation at any time. Even today when you go to a bookstore you don't see the Indians Wars listed as a heading very often. It's usually Civil war then WWI. Viet Nam is more PC now then when I got back from them there.

AZ Ranger

[mcaryf]

Hi Wild

Thanks for the debate, however, I will be disappointed if you do sign off without making your own suggestion about what Benteen should actually have done.

Regards

Mike

[wild]

Apologies.If anyone noticed a somewhat crazy post there.My
computer went into some kind of spasm there.Normal service will resume in a moment

[markland]

wild said:

Apologies.If anyone noticed a somewhat crazy post there.My
computer went into some kind of spasm there.Normal service will resume in a moment

Wild, since you did open the door, I feel under an obligation to march through it.

Which of your posts was more crazy than the others?



Billy

[AZ Ranger]

His comment was to the effect that he could move along the chord whilst the Indians had to go round the arc of the circle to get to the train.
You are suggesting Benteen could determine all dimentions ie time and distance speed involving numerious forces?
Sorry Mike I can't compete at that level .You win hands down.

I thought it just meant it would be quicker to go in a straight line then a curve.

[harpskiddie]

I do believe that quote from Benteen described his mindset in the Ash Creek valley after receiving the order via Martin, not while on Reno Hill.

Gordie