A couple puzzling points

[crzhrs]

I think all commanding officers made mistakes:

(1): Custer (one of several) for not sending a message to Benteen informing him of ordering Reno to attack Indians and to return or at least be aware of running Indians;

(2): Reno rather than taking full charge of the situation on Reno Hill, leaving to go look for Hogdson;

(3): Benteen for meekly acquiescing to Reno once arriving at Reno Hill;

That doesn't include junior officers who also failed to inspire any confidence during Reno's fight and/or retreat . . .

And since no soldiers survived Custer's fight we can only assume mistakes were made there.

[wild]

Hi Mike
I tried and failed to get you to answer the question as to whether you thought any possibility of a "win" existed after Custer's decision to continue past Weir Point.
Sorry it was not my intention to avoid a question.
My view is that the odds were stacked against a win [at 4.10]if based on tangible factors ie relative strenghts,terrain,dispositions ect.But I imagine US military tradition is not based on such tangibles but rather on the stuff that motivated the defenders of the Alamo,who was that sailor who when asked to strike his colors replied "I have not yet begun to fight"or those bastard chappies in Bastogne who prevented Hitler reaching the channel ports,the navy flyers who pressed home their attacks against impossible odds at Midway.
We are agreed that at 4.10 Benteen had accepted defeat I think he had already formed a view that no win was possible on the 25thAre you allowing Bebteen to assume that Terry's 300 men would have made a difference after the 26th?

From this set of information and orders you draw the conclusion that Benteen should have proceeded along the bluffs to where, with hindsight, you know Custer to have been.
Martin knew the approx position.

Are you suggesting he does this immediately, leaving the packs to be captured by the Indians who were still on the valley floor?
The packs at 4.10 are 6 miles from the village Custer is 1/2 a mile away.Which do you will get their full attention?

When the Indians start to move back to the North surely the inference is that Custer is attacking from the far side, thus should Benteen not have resumed the attack on the Village from the South?
He should follow orders .Going off and doing things off your own bat leads to all kinds of confusion.

Thus he did not move until the 7 companies were reunited
That move to Weir Point was an unprofessional shambles and undermines your entire arguement that Benteen was on top of the situation and thinking strategically.

To summarise, I think Benteen realised as soon as he saw the valley floor action that there would be no win that day.
I imagine that this must grate with any soldiers on the board.It might be hyperbole or melodramatic but I dont believe that is a generally held view among a nation who coined the phrase "surrender monkeys."

I find your criticism of his "failure to attempt to win" somewhat disingenuous. You yourself know that there was no chance of a win at that stage and Benteen, a very professional soldier, knew that as well. It was a case of preserving as much of the regiment as possible and that is precisely what he did.
I guess it's a difference in philosophy.I believe regiments are not for preserving,honor is.

Just to end on another piece of melodrama but the soldiers here will know what I mean.The National colors were with Custer.Where was Benteen?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there
Best Regards and my thanks for an interesting debate
Slan

[elisabeth]

That one's always puzzled me, Wild. Aren't you supposed to lower the flag at sunset?

[Tony]

Fred--saw your post concerning "failure". As my entire family are vets (I will not comment on my own status), I would like to assert that in no way did you ever fail anyone--if anything, you should be proud of your sacrifice and status. There's no way that you could ever blame yourself for any deaths during Nam.--a place where uncommon valor was a common virtue (yourself included).

[harpskiddie]

Elisabeth:

I don't think you pause for the Retreat Ceremony in the middle of a fight. I think you find a taller flag pole and run your banner up even higher.

Gordie

[mcaryf]

Hi Wild

Whilst I understand your purpose in giving the three examples from US military history they are not entirely apposite. The Alamo was a defensive battle, as it had to be considering the odds, thus it was rather more akin to what Benteen and Reno did for a day and a bit than Custer's chosen method of fighting. The siege of Bastogne was rather strange in that there were more US troops inside Bastogne defending it than there were Germans outside attacking it. It was a reasonably good performance by the defenders but subsequently written up as a great defensive triumph to offset the bad PR from the original German breakthroughs. The nature of air attack versus ships is that at the moment of attack a few individual air crew are pitting themselves against hundreds or thousands of men defending the ships. There were some extremely brave men at Midway, particularly the TBF crews who mounted virtually suicidal attacks. However, the US did actually have more planes available for that battle than the IJN so purely in terms of aircraft the numbers were in favour of the US.

Returning to LBH, I did not say that I thought Benteen had accepted defeat but rather I judged that he would have thought that the 7th could not win on the 25th as a result of the unfortunate dispersion of their units and the strength of the Indians. After all he had earlier told Custer that it might be sensible to keep the regiment together so this was already in his mind.

With respect to the threat to the packs the key issue is that the Indians on the valley floor were probably within a couple of miles of where the packs were, Benteen of course had no definite knowledge of where Custer was or if indeed he was still alive.

Your comment that "Benteen should follow orders" as a response to the Indians going back to the Village is not particularly helpful unless of course you want to allow Benteen the hindsight that you enjoy as to knowing where Custer was. For the sake of this particular point let us assume that Custer's "Come on" order should mean "come to me" although of course it might just mean come to the fight. Benteen had asked Custer's messenger, Martini, where Custer was and had been told that Martiini thought he would be charging through the village by now, now being 30 minutes ago. In this case "come to me" would mean come to the Village and not go jaunting off into unknown areas along the bluffs.

Any move by the forces available to Reno and Benteen was likely to be ineffective due to the need to take the wounded. Weir's move to Weir Point and then his failure to tell his senior oficer what was happening was the key to the subsequent confusion. Benteen's own movement was to apprise himself of the situation and provide any support necessary to Weir. In the event Weir should have been very grateful for the support provided.

If you do not beleive substantial quantities of US troops have ever surrendered I suggest you study the earlier phases of the Battle of the Bulge and possibly the defence of The Phillipines. There is no real disgrace in surrender if your force has no hope, I am sure quite a few of Custer's own troopers would have been pleased to surrender if they had been given the option.

The philosophy you seem to be endorsing was that of Adolf Hitler - that his cut off garrisons should fight to the last man, his generals actually interpreted this as to the last bullet which was perhaps more reasonable.

My argument in any event is not about surrender but rather ensuring that most of the 7th Cavalry would still be trying to achieve the campaign objectives on the 26th rather than dying to no purpose on the 25th.

Regards

Mike

[crzhrs]

And just exactly was the US Cavalry fighting for . . . not only at the LBH but in other action against Indians?

It wasn't to prevent the overthrow of the government . . .

It wasn't to prevent the Indians from ruining the economy . . .

What was left?

What was the motivation to give one's life for a unpopular and unnecessary war?

In some of the other battles mentioned countries were at stake and it would have inspired soldiers to risk their lives for their nation.

By 1876 the US military's mission had been reduced to fighting newly-out-of-the-stone age-people in some of the wildest and remotest land in North America. And if a soldier fell into the hands of an Indian a "fate-worse-than-death" could be in store.

How much of that was going through the minds of Reno, Benteen, Varnum, Godfrey, Moylan, etc.?

[Dark Cloud]

Good. Beware succumbing to Wild's offering of tear-drenched nonsense; he's setting you up for the exchange to come when he applies the same drunken nonsense to Ireland and England. When you can't stand the facts, talk 'tradition' by which is meant 'myth.' Fiction, rather.

The Alamo is not part of U.S. military history because the U.S. military played no role whatsoever. It was an amateur affair on the Texan side with many alleged US citizens.

Americans surrendered all through their wars including the CW without shame, all through the Pacific in WWII. We surrender a lot, generally wisely.

What won the Battle of the Bulge was the weather clearing and allowing overpowering airpower to nullify the Germans. They rolled over the Allied troopers like they did in 1918, otherwise. Retreat or advance, the Germans exacted better than 2 to 1 casualty ratio, and the US rarely won without horrific odds in its favor. Why should it? Dice with death or call in a bombing run? Hmmmm.

The cavalry was in the West to protect American citizens and interests, and without protection for the railroads and telegraphs there would have been no unity between the West Coast of states and the East. Further, the economy of the West was totally dependent upon functioning farms and cattle ranch, although at the beginning it was circular logic: the farms needed to feed the Army which needed to be there to protect the farms, etc. Sherman saw this right off and bitched constantly about it. But the immigration waves were huge and the land was thought needed, if not immediately, then soon. And it was. When Sitting Bull returned from Canada, the Powder River country was settled. Quick.

It's forgot, but a large reason for the cavalry presence was to keep peace between the tribes. This was notional, at best, and not PC by today's standards, and moreover reflects our ignorance, but it was deeply held by the religious back East to be a good thing.

[wild]

Hi Mike
I must of course bow to your better knowledge of American history and accept your demolition of my impression that the US military had a proud tradition of unswerving loyalty.But it was hyperbole and not substantive,

Returning to LBH, I did not say that I thought Benteen had accepted defeat but rather I judged that he would have thought that the 7th could not win on the 25th as a result of the unfortunate dispersion of their units and the strength of the Indians.
Do you have a date on which he proposed to become active.

With respect to the threat to the packs the key issue is that the Indians on the valley floor were probably within a couple of miles of where the packs were,
Using Gray the packs are 6 miles from the village.

Benteen of course had no definite knowledge of where Custer was or if indeed he was still alive
He made no effort to find out.

For the sake of this particular point let us assume that Custer's "Come on" order should mean "come to me"
It does not need any interpretation.In the military it means report to me [for orders].

Benteen had asked Custer's messenger, Martini, where Custer was and had been told that Martiini thought he would be charging through the village by now, now being 30 minutes ago. In this case "come to me" would mean come to the Village and not go jaunting off into unknown areas along the bluffs.
Must do better Mike ---The entire battle hinged on what a trooper thought might happen?

Any move by the forces available to Reno and Benteen was likely to be ineffective due to the need to take the wounded.
The order refered to Benteen only.As regards the wounded they cannot be allowed to prevent the advance of Benteen's battalion.[Did Grant not leave hundreds of wounded to die at cold harbor rather than ask Lee permission to remove them?]

Benteen's own movement was to apprise himself of the situation and provide any support necessary to Weir.
It was to cover his butt just in case Weir got through to Custer.

If you do not beleive substantial quantities of US troops have ever surrendered I suggest you study the earlier phases of the Battle of the Bulge and possibly the defence of The Phillipines.
Not a good day for the American military?So another point to you.Unless others here say otherwise I take it that the US does not have a proud military tradition.

The philosophy you seem to be endorsing was that of Adolf Hitler - that his cut off garrisons should fight to the last man, his generals actually interpreted this as to the last bullet which was perhaps more reasonable.
The philosophy I endorse is that of the professional soldier.A philosophy which regards the regiment as the military manifestation of the nation.

My argument in any event is not about surrender but rather ensuring that most of the 7th Cavalry would still be trying to achieve the campaign objectives on the 26th rather than dying to no purpose on the 25th.
You have Benteen movitated by strategic considerations.So tell us do, applying the same criteria you use on the 25 how could Benteen have been of service to Terry with a further 30 wounded and god only knows how many horses killed.And explain how Terry with 300+ would fare against the victorious Indians now armed with Custer's weapons?
Best Regards

[wild]

crzhs
What was the motivation to give one's life for a unpopular and unnecessary war?
Is the cause a motivational factor for professional soldiers?
Professional soldiers embrace the profession of arms not causes.They do in fact fight for their units.Causes are like fashions a new one every month .

By 1876 the US military's mission had been reduced to fighting newly-out-of-the-stone age-people in some of the wildest and remotest land in North America. And if a soldier fell into the hands of an Indian a "fate-worse-than-death" could be in store.

How much of that was going through the minds of Reno, Benteen, Varnum, Godfrey, Moylan, etc.?
Its called terror and is very effective.
Slan

[mcaryf]

With respect to the threat to the packs the key issue is that the Indians on the valley floor were probably within a couple of miles of where the packs were,
Using Gray the packs are 6 miles from the village.

Yes but the Indians on the valley floor below Reno Hill were not in the Village they were within about 2 miles of where Benteen could expect the train to be.

Benteen of course had no definite knowledge of where Custer was or if indeed he was still alive
He made no effort to find out.

He asked both Martini and Reno where Custer was and would have reasonably assumed that Weir would send a message if Custer were in sight from Weir Point.

Benteen had asked Custer's messenger, Martini, where Custer was and had been told that Martiini thought he would be charging through the village by now, now being 30 minutes ago. In this case "come to me" would mean come to the Village and not go jaunting off into unknown areas along the bluffs.
Must do better Mike ---The entire battle hinged on what a trooper thought might happen?

Now this is where I think you need to do better in your attempt at criticism. This was not any trooper - this was Custer's chosen messenger to provide information to Benteen about what he was required to do.

Any move by the forces available to Reno and Benteen was likely to be ineffective due to the need to take the wounded.
The order refered to Benteen only.As regards the wounded they cannot be allowed to prevent the advance of Benteen's battalion.[Did Grant not leave hundreds of wounded to die at cold harbor rather than ask Lee permission to remove them?]

Benteen did move once the packs were available to follow as per Custer's requirement and without letting the wounded prevent him from doing that. Reno and the wounded chose to straggle along behind. You may describe it as chaotic but the result was that the command did manage to return to a defensible position with the loss of only one man.

My argument in any event is not about surrender but rather ensuring that most of the 7th Cavalry would still be trying to achieve the campaign objectives on the 26th rather than dying to no purpose on the 25th.
You have Benteen movitated by strategic considerations.So tell us do, applying the same criteria you use on the 25 how could Benteen have been of service to Terry with a further 30 wounded and god only knows how many horses killed.And explain how Terry with 300+ would fare against the victorious Indians now armed with Custer's weapons?

I am afraid you seem to be applying 20 20 hindsight here in having Benteen assess Custer as destroyed. A more reasonable conclusion for Benteen is that Custer has attacked and been repulsed like Reno and is now forted up somewhere. Benteen would know that in these circumstances he has no real prospects with just 120 men to fight his way through to Custer over any distance. The best hope for a reasonable outcome is to consolidate his force with that of McDougall and the remnants of Reno, attempt to determine whether Custer is near enough for an attempt to link up but if not find a defensible position until Terry's reinforcements arrive and when they do hopefully the three groups (Custer, Terry and Reno/Benteen) might be able to take the initiative again. In practice this is the approach he adopted.

This answers your other question about when Benteen might have expected to resume the offensive, it would be when Terry arrived as he probably anticipated that Custer would not be in great shape if he had already been repulsed.

Regards

Mike

[crzhrs]

Grant did leave many wounded behind . . . but he knew the CSA would not kill them, torture them, or mutilate them. Not so in Indian fighting. To leave anyone behind would mean certain death. I think Vincent Charley would agree on that one!

By 1876 there were not many professional soldiers in the military, especially enlisted men. Many were immigrants looking for a job, money, a place to sleep, eat, etc., learn English. Others were unsavory or even criminals looking to avoid arrest back East.

The Esprit d'Corps after the CW was not very good . . . and it showed at the LBH with many officers and enlisted of Reno/Benteen's command thinking Custer abandoned them . . . we know how Benteen felt about Custer and Reno even stated he did not have much faith in Custer.

I'm not saying men did not care about each other, but I wonder how many would risk their lives for someone they didn't respect . . .

[wild]

Yes but the Indians on the valley floor below Reno Hill were not in the Village they were within about 2 miles of where Benteen could expect the train to be.
3 miles is more accurate but you are suggesting that the Indians leave the Village under attack 6 miles in their rear--not likely.

He asked both Martini and Reno where Custer was and would have reasonably assumed that Weir would send a message if Custer were in sight from Weir Point.
Weir asked permission to go but was refused.You are claiming the actions of others for Benteen's defence.

Now this is where I think you need to do better in your attempt at criticism. This was not any trooper - this was Custer's chosen messenger to provide information to Benteen about what he was required to do.
Martin a bugler with little knowledge of English and none of tactics was expected to explain the military situation 20 minutes after he left Custer and Benteen would heed this and disregard the actual message he carried.Please Mike.........

Benteen did move once the packs were available to follow as per Custer's requirement and without letting the wounded prevent him from doing that.
He left Reno and the wounded to fend for themselves because he was afraid Weir would reach Custer before him.

In practice this is the approach he adopted.
In practice he sat on a hill and awaited relief.It is possible to Attribute all kinds of grandiose tactical schemes to him but I have never seen any evidence that he suggested such schemes himself.

Really granting Martin tactical competance ,claiming Weir's unapproved excurshion,elevating that shambles enroute to Weir Point as an advance in compliance with Custer's wishes and then allowing Benteen to fantasise about tactics does your sceanario no good.

Best Regards
Slan

[AZ Ranger]

Wild Do you believe Benteen could have reached Custer with the packs?

I like Fred's thoughts on the packs that it wasn't just the packs but the men with them which makes bringing the packs an important part of the order.

AZ Ranger

[wild]

Wild Do you believe Benteen could have reached Custer with the packs?
No