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Post by benteen on Sept 5, 2013 14:56:32 GMT -6
One of Wellington's subordinates at Waterloo was once married to Wellington's sister. He ran off with some other woman, and the scandal disgraced both Wellington's sister and touched the Wellesley family. That intense dislike for the officer did not prevent Wellington from working with the man in battle. Perhaps not quite the same, but very similar I would think. So Dan, DC brings up a good point. He does not think Custer would allow Reno to get overcome and slaughtered. I don't either, and probably for the same reason. I seem to remember though that you have mentioned a time or two or ten, that you thought Custer hung Reno out to dry. So are you saying that Benteen would not have done, what you believe by your posts that Custer did? Are you applying one standard to one, and another to the other? The motivation of self satisfaction or more glory or whatever, is indeed the same root evil as homicidal level hatred. So then where would be the dishonorable discharge, the term of prison, or the date of execution? No Chuck that is not what I am saying, and not a good comparison. The accusation was that Benteen intentionally allowed 210 men get slaughtered because he didn't like Custer. I never said or implied that Custer abandoned Elliot, or the 2 soldiers when he went off to see Libby, or Reno simply because he didn't like them, that was the point. Be Well Dan |
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Post by quincannon on Sept 5, 2013 15:06:52 GMT -6
Perhaps what you have said is the Custer did not care about Reno in the valley. I do remember you not thinking Custer had any intention of lending him support. Perhaps not the same thing, but close I'd wager You are correct though about one thing. Custer was all about Custer. To what degree he would have carried it is open to speculation. I personally don't have any heartburn with Elliot. I do have heartburn with other of his actions where he was court martialed and convicted. To what extent Custer would have extended the all about me is conjecture, but my point, which I obviously failed to make is that the same standard should be applied to all when looking at conduct, and then possible motivation for that conduct, and if it involves criminal level negligence.
Had Benteen not gone to Custer because of his personal hatred for the man, and as a result allowed all or most of those men to die (undoubtedly some would have died anyway) that would be a criminally negligent act, not far short of first degree murder in the eyes of the law. There were only two people who originally thought that to be the case. Mrs. Custer, no doubt out of a combination of childlike adoration for Custer and grief, and Whitacre who was out to make a buck.. They started a ball rolling that continues most untruthfully and most unfairly to this very afternoon, without any signs of stopping in the next thousand years.
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Post by wild on Sept 5, 2013 16:16:26 GMT -6
Benteen left it up to Reno to make the call.
If he had wanted to queer Custer then he would not have shown his orders to Reno.
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Post by benteen on Sept 5, 2013 16:57:12 GMT -6
Benteen left it up to Reno to make the call. If he had wanted to queer Custer then he would not have shown his orders to Reno. Richard..You and I have always been 180 about Benteen, and that's fine with me. I enjoy our difference of opinion and discussing them with you. But you have brought this thing up a few times and I am wondering why you think this is significant. To me it would be natural for Benteen to say "Major do you know where Custer is, I got this message from Cook" and show it to him. I certainly could be missing something, but why do you fell this is some revelation as to Benteens actions. Be Well Dan |
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Post by warden on Sept 5, 2013 17:43:49 GMT -6
benteen:
An example of one officer's disregard of another's fate and the troops with him can be seen in Gen. McClellan's reply to Gen. Halleck/Pres. Lincoln, "to leave Pope to get out of his scrape." during the 2nd Bull Run Campaign. Whether hate, arrogance, or politics as usual motivated McClellan I don't know. This ties into the LBH as just so happens one of McClellan's aides was one Capt. G. A. Custer at the time. One has to wonder if this phrase went thru Custer's mind on LSH and he was being left to get out of his own scrape. I believe the biggest anti-Benteen influence is the remarks Benteen made to Goldin in their correspondence about Custer and clan. These remarks would raise the hackles on any Custerphile and are always used as justification to bash Benteen. Without them the bias against Benteen would be much less.
warden
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Post by wild on Sept 5, 2013 17:52:38 GMT -6
Hello Dan
The mission came first.
For God's sake Benteen halt your command and help me, half my men are dead.
That is not an order and as I have stated elsewhere Reno could not countermand the orders of his superior because his superior still had control of his battalions.
The action by Benteen although humane is totally non aggressive is totally against for want of a better term fighting spirit.
That humanity displayed by Benteen is for the boy scouts not for battlers.
Dan there might be a typo in your last sentence and I'm not so sure I understand.However everything Benteen did was passive.He was playing the old soldier doing everthing by the numbers without enthusiasm.
I don't believe he intentionally wanted to spoil Custer's day but he was not mission orientated and there was sufficient ambiguity in which salve his conscience.
I think his action of leaving his post without reference to Reno was the pits.Not quiet Semper Fi.
You carve a nice independent furrow Dan;always enjoy your posts.
Cheers
Richard
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Post by fred on Sept 5, 2013 18:11:45 GMT -6
Suspect many recent vets have met Benteen's like and hated them, and they can transfer the anger here, requiring no courage or time in Leavenworth. ! Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by benteen on Sept 5, 2013 18:19:26 GMT -6
Richard/Warden
Thank you for your replies , and I will certainly give the courtesy of an answer, but tonight is opening day for the NFL and Dark Clouds Broncos are playing the Ravens (Last years super-bowl champs) and Mr Rossi perhaps Mr Daniels as well (Depending on how the game goes)and I will be perched in front of the TV. Hope both of you Gentlemen have a good evening.
Be Well
Dan
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Post by fred on Sept 5, 2013 18:26:57 GMT -6
An example of one officer's disregard of another's fate and the troops with him can be seen in Gen. McClellan's reply to Gen. Halleck/Pres. Lincoln, "to leave Pope to get out of his scrape." ... This ties into the LBH as just so happens one of McClellan's aides was one Capt. G. A. Custer at the time. One has to wonder if this phrase went thru Custer's mind on LSH and he was being left to get out of his own scrape. Does this mean you think that if Benteen had arrived with his 114 men, trumpets blaring, guidons waving, he would have saved the day... and Custer too? Can you be more specific? Like... maybe quoting those remarks...? You know... to back up your claim. In context, of course. Do those remarks count-- in your mind, of course-- as much or more than these... [February 17, 1896]“You know enough of me to know I’d have gone through to [Custer] had it been possible to do so. At same time, I’m only too proud to say that I despised him as a murderer, thief and a liar—all of which I can prove.” [271 – 272] [February 19, 1896] Benteen said, “… the regiment was in terrible shape from the very beginning,” Custer being the cause of it. He also said, “The anti-Custer faction—if there was such a faction—were the people in regiment which had all of the hard duty to perform, and who did it nobly, because they loved their country and the ‘Service.’” [273] Just looking for information, that's all. Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by quincannon on Sept 5, 2013 19:24:26 GMT -6
For a guy who would just as soon let Pope get out of his own scrape. Are we speaking of the same guy here, the one that provided from his own force three army corps to reinforce Pope before and during the Second Manassas Campaign? Was he the same one that had another corps on the way, as close as Annandale, when Pope in fact did become the engine of his own destruction, due to poor generalship, arrogant, headquarters in the saddle, mentality, and general incompetence? Is that the one? Is John Pope the one who could not even keep track of his own uniform jacket, and lost it to marauding cavalry at Catlets, not to mention the loss of his entire supply apparatus, to an entire wing of Lee's Army that got behind him without notice. "John Pope" by the words of one of his own Corps Commander's "was not worth a bucket of spit", and could not have gotten himself out of a latrine if someone did not open the door for him. So while McClellan was a prima donna of monumental proportion everything he said about Pope , every emotion he felt was absolutely true and valid. You can say what you want about McClellan, but unwillingness to help Pope by his demonstrated actions was not one of them. Did not have to like the man to see his duty to the Army and his country clearly. But you can hardly blame a man for not relishing the idea of sending the bulk of his trained and seasoned army into the incompetent hands of John Pope. Your post therefore is not worth a bucket of spit.
Bad rap you're presenting here Warden. Totally irrelevant . Bad scholarship. Bad conclusions. Bad history
Read John Hennessey's "Return to Bull Run: then come back on this forum with knowledge of the matter at hand. You might also keep in mind that when you are talking Second Manassas and Second Manassas alone you are talking to a home boy, a home boy who reads, and walks, and has written papers on the subject at hand.. So don't try to skin anything by me to take a cheap shot.
In case you wonder, anyone here will testify I am no fan of George McClellan on a battlefield.
PS: Make that four army corps and part of a fifth that McClellan sent Pope. I had forgotten about the 1st Division of VI Corps AoP
PPS: Just to make this perfectly clear so you will not misunderstand my meaning I took a very big exception to your words "one officer's disregard to another's fate and the troops with him". You have no idea how much that irritates me, and it would irritate me just as much if it were said about any officer including George Custer, who I have no personal liking or admiration for either. You take a remark completely out of the context it was made and attach to it, a meaning that is utterly disgusting and totally irresponsible to anyone who has ever worn a uniform. That idea being that they would place themselves before duty and country, their leadership responsibilities, and most of all the troops they lead, or any troops, under any commander, at any time that were in harms way. You took a cheap shot at McClellan, but the effect was felt by anyone who has ever worn this country's uniform. But those long dead can't defend themselves, and you can sit behind a computer, and say that mean old son of a bitch is picking on me, and play victim, and you don't even know what you did to deserve it. Well you know now.
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Post by wild on Sept 6, 2013 7:14:40 GMT -6
Hi Warden,You are very welcome to the board.
Quinncannon's reply to your post was belligerent in the extreme and unjustified.An appeal was made to him by a fellow officer to moderate his tone but as we can see to no avail.He knows no other way;it is his stock in trade.
Officers are not some sacrosanct species.They have their share of disreputable characters just like any other profession.They are not above criticism.
For example Grant at Coldharbour left fellow officers and other ranks to die horrible deaths because his ego was too big to face up to asking Lee for permission to remove his wounded.
Cheers
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 6, 2013 7:34:28 GMT -6
If Benteen didn’t like Custer, at least they didn’t do what these two temperamental Officers did;
French General Jean-Louis Reynier shot another Frenchie General Jacques-Zacharie Destaing dead in a duel (apparently they didn’t get on, but they were French).
Ian.
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Post by wild on Sept 6, 2013 7:57:54 GMT -6
Off thread but ---
Has anyone got a time for Custer's dimise?
How long after his dimise did the warriors advance on Reno?
There are estimates for the length of the battle;Fred has 1.18 to 1.45. Seems a bit strange having an approx. time for the lenght battle but no termination time?And what about the start time?
Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Sept 6, 2013 7:59:09 GMT -6
Ian: The animosity between Pope and McClellan was more Pope than McClellan. Pope had convinced Lincoln to install Halleck as the overall commander of the armies. As long as McClellan was in command of the AoP he was a threat to Pope's ambitions. McClellan was no saint in the ambitions department either. The basis of the letter cited by Warden rests in Halleck's incompetence to coordinate the reinforcement of Pope who was being outmaneuvered by Lee. At one point Halleck admitted that he was over his head (incapable) of effecting a more rapid junction of McClellan's reinforcement of Pope. So the meaning behind the letter was nothing more than McClellan saying to Halleck - You screwed me and now you want my help getting Pope's fat out of the fire. Hardly the nefarious meaning that Warden attaches to it. It was along the lines of me saying to you Ian don't place your hand on that hot stove. You do, and then turn to me and say -Will you drive me to the hospital, I burned myself. I would be highly pissed with you but I would still drive you to the hospital.
I would also remind Warden, it was those very troops that McClellan sent to Pope that did the majority of the fighting and dying at Second Manassas, when they were subject to conducting piecemeal and uncoordinated attacks against what was arguably either the first or second most difficult defensive line ever held by the Army of Northern Virginia, the other being Fredericksburg. They were also the only ones engaged at Chantilly on 1 September. when they held open Pope's line of retreat so he could once again escape the clutches of Lee, as Lee turned him once again.
The larger point though is what possible good is taking a snipit of a man's words out of context and damning him as a man who does not recognize his duty to both country and his soldiers, to make some point he wishes to get across. An inaccurate statement that can only cloud, confuse and distract us from the issue at hand.
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Post by bc on Sept 6, 2013 8:27:54 GMT -6
Off thread but --- Has anyone got a time for Custer's dimise? How long after his dimise did the warriors advance on Reno? There are estimates for the length of the battle;Fred has 1.18 to 1.45. Seems a bit strange having an approx. time for the lenght battle but no termination time?And what about the start time? Cheers Daytime, right after, and daytime.  bc |
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