Benteens orders

[wild]

Fred has in his ford D opus said that Custer knew that Benteen was on his way regardless of circumstances.
Fred has also said that there was no substantial threat to Custer..
Weir got through to Weir Point.And of course Custer got through to Ford D..



[b]about an hour ago yantaylor said:
... how these people can think that those Officers on that hill could simply ride off into the unknown in a combat zone against god knows how many enemy is beyond me, especially with casualties to consider[/b][/i]
Benteen left his post in a combat zone and rode off without reference to Reno and with no consideration for the wounded

[wild]

OVERCOME BY EVENTS is not in the cognitive repertoire in Donkeyland.
And the action tacken to counter these events was to sit on their arses and mutter DUH!

[quincannon]

A number of posts over these past days and weeks are proof positive that keeping company with those of superior intellect and knowledge of these affairs is not contagious, and certain elements of the donkey community have an inbred immunity to knowledge, the power to reason, and indeed to understand the written word. That is truly a shame. but so be it. A fool is never a fool in his own eyes, but only held as such in the eyes of others. Please continue.

It should also be noted that in leaving his post in a combat zone, as you judge the actions of Benteen above, is exactly what you have advocated over these many years. So it would seem that you too are critical of the action. That appears to be like trying to have it both ways. You damn him for not doing what you believe he was supposed to do, going to Custer, and then you double damn him for doing it. Having your cake and eating it is not something that happens often, but I suppose that does not keep people from trying, as you have done here. So every time you say things like this in a vacuum, do you really think people do not take note of and remember your previous words on a particular subject? You wonder why your credibility is lower than whale dung. This is a very big part of the reason why. Your brain is supposed to be used for thinking through things to logical conclusions. Use it now to justify your own double standards of Benteen's conduct, that is if you believe you have the inherent capacity to do so.

I also take note of the fact that despite three previous posts, this being the fourth, you have still not attempted to delete your double post, or to ask for help and/or instructions on how to do same. It has been more than twenty one hours now. That really says more about you than any word you have ever written in the sum total of your sixty-nine years on this earth. I would remind you of the Biblical admonition that - Pride goes before the fall. It is never a sign of personal weakness to ask for help. It is a sign of personal weakness not to ask for help. As long as that double post is there you stand defeated.

[montrose]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFfobQftP5k

I think it is time to leave wild alone. We don't have to agree with one another. But the board spends more time and energy slagging each other than discussing LBH. Let's remember why we are here.

[quincannon]

Well Will now that you insist I will leave Belichick alone.

Removing distractions though is a two way street. I cannot be done by one alone, or by one side of the issue alone. When the instigator of the distraction stops there will be no further need to be sidetracked into a gutter filled with slop.

[fred]

Sept 3, 2013 11:35:19 GMT -6 montrose said:

I think it is time to leave wild alone.

You know, Will, under normal circumstances I would agree. I have even gone so far as to ignore everything he posts, here and on the other boards. I have disciplined myself to look first for the avatar and when I see his-- indicative, to me, of what he must be really like-- I move on without reading his post. At 73, I cannot think of a more distasteful lout I have ever come across... and I have know some beauts. He contributes nothing to these discussions; he offers absolutely nothing of value, nothing new, nothing honest, nothing reasonable. All he does is mock, stalk, and snipe, criticize and tear down, offering nothing of any sense or reason-- or support-- in its place. If he were in my military unit, I would make sure he was the point man on a road I knew was loaded with IEDs. He nauseates me in virtually every way I can think about and what I find hopeful is that he pisses off everyone, including those he thinks are his friends. I suspect he is simply one of life's failures, bitter with everything and everyone, and as Dark Cloud so aptly stated, the traditional "drunk at the bar."

But... since this was the "bolt," I shall endeavor to honor your wishes, especially since I admire and respect you so very much. I shall attempt to refrain from even mentioning his "name." Now... pay attention, Will... let's see how well the other side plays out.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[wild]

US Military regulations state that the senior officer can take command of a unit and issue orders which are contrary to any duty or mission it might be engaged in BUT ONLY WHEN THE OFFICER COMMANDING IS NOT PRESENT.
Custer was still in control of his battalions and 28 minutes before Reno's Benteen for God's sake halt your command and help me.Half my men are dead. a communication had reached Benteen.
There is also a protocol to be followed.The junior officer must bring to the senior's attention the conflict between the orders and request his new orders in writing.The commanding officer must be informed of the countermanding of his orders.
Nothing remotely like this occurred between Benteen and Reno.

A question was put to me concerning Reno's wounded.
Benteen was not responsible for Reno's wounded.Reno was responsible for his wounded and had no intention of moving them.But when Benteen came under Reno's command he triggered a general move which resulted in the wounded being left stranded without enough men to carry them.

I don't know any of you guys; you are just words on my screen.I'll comment on anything that is of interest to me whether addressed to me or not.The only one savvy enough to realise that this is not a closed parish and has a world audience is DC and he thinks that what I post should be slapped down every time.[remember the book burning] .Anyway just remember where you are from and that you represent your countries officer corps.

[quincannon]

He was. I am sure that is news. Why don't you enlighten us as to how he was in control? What method of control did he have? How was he to exercise that control? Where was he? Where were they? If he were in such control, why did not he hasten to the support of Reno when he reached the bluff top to fend of the hostile pursuit? Why did he not take responsibility for the wounded, for he was the regimental commander, and they were his wounded too? How do you know nothing of the kind between Reno and Benteen occurred? Were you that speck of horse s**t on Reno's tunic, or do you just presume it did not occur?

Once again you cannot answer these important questions, but I do have an answer which will contribute much to the turd you have already smeared all over your face in the asking, and oddly enough it is from another thing you have said multiple times in the past that comes back to haunt you. There were a bazillion Indians two minutes away from and between Custer and Reno/Benteen according to you. Another have your cake and eat it moment is it? You remember them don't you. You have been peddling that around these parts for as long as I have been here. So what did they do, disappear by magic so you could make another point but once again on a foundation of sand? So Custer could not exercise control, or command, or place a phone call, or wave a signal flag, utilize a carrier pigeon, hop in his helicopter, or plug in his computer, use a radio. All he could do is bend over and kiss his ass farewell , and by his own hand. So don't you dare quote United States Army Regulation to me you mental midget piker, because control was the one thing that at that moment Custer could not do. It is likely that once he saw all those Indians he could not retain control of his own bowels much less two battalions three miles away.

And one more thing. You just remember that you represent the noncommissioned officer corps of your country. Are they a professional force or like you a misbegotten bog trotter, who claims to have been a corporal?

[quincannon]

Fred: There is nothing more I would like as well as for this to stop for the sole purpose of getting on with business. As it is donkey boy should only be treated in the same manner as the rattle snake that appears in one's garden. Either shoo him away, or shoot the bastard stone cold dead and burn his stinking carcass in hell's own fire.

I too wish I could comply with Montrose's and I am sure the wishes of others as well. I know what he is all about. I know he is a drunk at the bar, here only to stir trouble. I know him to be a man of low degree. I do try, but like the repetitious sinner my intention is to mend my ways but the temptation of sin still draws me astray from time to time.

[wild]

Control was exercised by communication via messengers.Benteen got two communications on his oblique.And of course a further communication when he returned to the trail;one went to the packs and Reno sent two to Custer.So Control was being exercised right up to the time Reno asked for help.

So Custer could not exercise control, or command
Martin would prove otherwise.

So don't you dare quote United States Army Regulation to me you mental midget piker
I'm right am I not? You know those regulations don't you;course you do ;an old soldier like you can quote the most obsecure regulations.
And you never mentioned them,kept them buried knowing fullwell that Benteen and Reno had made a balls of it.
CANNOT BE DONE IF THE OFFICER COMMANDING IS IN CONTROL.

PS
Are they a professional force or like you a misbegotten bog trotter
Yes the bogtrotters are off to Syria to take the place of the Austrians who are withdrawing because it is too dangerious

[quincannon]

I wish them well and success in their mission. I will reduce myself to my knees this very evening and thank God that the bog trotting corporal is not in command of them, thus insuring that some degree of success can be obtained and they won't all be killed. Irish soldiers are not bog trotters. You are a bog trotter, a peasant of low degree.

Now just one small illustrative point about control, and the exercise of command, when you have it and when you lose it:

Sam Houston was the commander of the Army of Texas. As such he was in overall command of the garrison force at the Alamo. He exercised that command via messenger, from literally the first hours of the siege. There were an unknown number of messengers that broke into and out of the Alamo during the period 23 February to 5 March 1836. While the number is unknown, it exceeds twenty. There was also at least one reinforcement of the garrison that broke in on either 1 or 3 March as sources again vary. So a case could be made, that with some significant delay Houston knew what was going on at least, although he could do very little about altering outcomes to the siege itself. All this took place, and like the messengers at LBH are on the record. All that stopped, no messengers got through or were able to get through in the predawn hours of 6 March because combat. close combat, just like at LBH, had been joined. So you tell me once again, tell all of us how Custer maintained control, and unless you have a way of making time and events stand still we will all enjoy a good laugh at your expense, and say there goes a fool of his own making . Half an hour on a battlefield is a lifetime, Events don't halt, corridors of communication do not remain open because you wish them to. You have said, your words, there were Indians, a multitude of Indians moments away from Custer. It was at this very time that they were there. You paint yourself into a corner with the paintbrush of your own words.

No I am not familiar with the regulation you either cite or make up out of thin air. What I will say, is that is sounds like something out of an ancient text, that has absolutely no practical application to a battlefield. I can think of two instances in John Ford movies that such similar things did occur, so perhaps you are once again confusing fiction for reality, or perhaps you real calling was missed and you should have pursued writing for the silver screen. So cite the complete regulation by title, chapter and paragraph lay the whole thing out to include the conditions with which it is applied or shut your damned trap. Put up or shut up donkey boy.,

[Yan Taylor]

Good morning everyone, a certain Person quoted me earlier so I feel obliged to answer them.

The one of the points being made was about Benteen leaving Reno and the wounded, but I am sure that I have read that after Lt. Weir departed (followed by his Company), Reno sent out Lt. Hare to try and make contact with Custer. Reno then orders his command to form in Columns-of-Twos with M Company leading followed by K, H, G Companies, Pack Train and B Company and finally A Company (with the wounded), Reno himself reached Weir Point and meets Benteen.

Now if this is right, were is the reference to Benteen doing is own thing and simply moving out and leaving Reno and the wounded behind?

On the other issue concerning Custer knowing that Benteen was on his way;

Custer may have thought that a combined force Reno/Benteen (followed by the train) may come up through the village heading north and not over the rough terrain he had just endured.

So if Custer had a notion that this was the more likely outcome, why would this alter his decision to move to Ford D.

Ian.

[AZ Ranger]

As usual William is right.

Steve

[AZ Ranger]

Ian

I read your post on the various units that had to form up on Reno Hill and it is pretty much what I have been discussing on the other board. What is a reasonable time for the combining of forces on Reno Hill and attempting to move toward Custer. I argued there that Benteen complied with Reno's order by staying long enough for Reno to get organized during the time the pack train came up.

I attempted to follow keogh's timing but it is to cherry picked to be of any value for me.

For me the speed of the pack train unless it is to be left somewhere with the wounded controls how fast they can move and where you would be willing to go. Even if you separate out only the ammunition carrying mules their speed and maneuverability would restrict the movement of troops with them.


Did they ever consider going back to Ford A? Or were they committed to follow Custer and why?


AZ Ranger

[jag]

Sept 3, 2013 12:43:10 GMT -6 fred said:

Sept 3, 2013 11:35:19 GMT -6 montrose said:

I think it is time to leave wild alone.

You know, Will, under normal circumstances I would agree. I have even gone so far as to ignore everything he posts, here and on the other boards. I have disciplined myself to look first for the avatar and when I see his-- indicative, to me, of what he must be really like-- I move on without reading his post. At 73, I cannot think of a more distasteful lout I have ever come across... and I have know some beauts. He contributes nothing to these discussions; he offers absolutely nothing of value, nothing new, nothing honest, nothing reasonable. All he does is mock, stalk, and snipe, criticize and tear down, offering nothing of any sense or reason-- or support-- in its place. If he were in my military unit, I would make sure he was the point man on a road I knew was loaded with IEDs. He nauseates me in virtually every way I can think about and what I find hopeful is that he pisses off everyone, including those he thinks are his friends. I suspect he is simply one of life's failures, bitter with everything and everyone, and as Dark Cloud so aptly stated, the traditional "drunk at the bar."

But... since this was the "bolt," I shall endeavor to honor your wishes, especially since I admire and respect you so very much. I shall attempt to refrain from even mentioning his "name." Now... pay attention, Will... let's see how well the other side plays out.

Best wishes,
Fred.

Fred,

You do realize that the vast majority if not all of the discussion on these boards are open for everyone to offer speculation upon, and by doing so, offer opinion. In fact I'd wager that the total opinion offered on this board for everyone involved is somewhere no less than the 80 to 90 percent range, your own included. In your post so well preserved by this post, it can be demonstrated that you used the words I, me, my - a grand total of at least 18 times, probably more because I only took count once to give you the benefit of doubt. Not just the words Me, My and I, but also these words - think, I, suspect, indicative, he, his etc. - the last two all followed by verbs of speculative accusation - to include a lie, to wit - the word "everyone". You've said it yourself. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. [PERIOD] There are no 'buts' to follow here Fred, none, not one. Just because his speculation and opinion doesn't jibe with your own, and is usually if not totally opposite your opinions, it doesn't make his any less important than your own. We, as in you and I both know, as we've done 'the work', and just as well as everyone who participates on this board, that to make any sense of this battle, there can not and will not be at any time now or into the future any new breakthroughs that wont involve serious speculation and opinion to get at what any one person feels is or could be the truth. And of that there is nothing of value, nothing new, nothing honest, nothing reasonable beyond speculation, theory and opinion.