Benteens orders

[Yan Taylor]

Chuck; this might be right up your Strasse.

link

Ian.

[quincannon]

Ian: Thanks for the link on the 2nd ID. It is and will always remain my favorite of U S Army Divisions.

You have the current composition correct. You should note however that all of the BCT's are in reality separate brigades, and the division headquarters operates more along the fashion of a corps headquarters in years past. In theory a division hqs can be task organized by drawing upon brigades from any of our divisions for combat. While at home station the headquarters commands its own brigades but usually deploys them separately as the need arises.

The 2d in particular is odd in that the division headquarters and the 1st (heavy) brigade is in Korea along with part of the aviation brigade. The 2d, 3d and 4th Brigades are at Fort Lewis, Washington, and they fall under the headquarters of 7th Infantry Division for garrison and administrative purposes. The Headquarters 7th Infantry Division has no other troops assigned, just the headquarters.

The impending restructure of the heavy brigades will probably add one more combined arms battalion to 1st brigade. The Stryker Brigades will probably remain as is.

If you can get a copy of Company Commander, an old book but still in print, it tells of the fighting by 2nd Division of the northern shoulder of the Bulge and the Twin Villages. Best narrative of company level combat there is for my money.

When the 2nd ID first returned from World War I they came to Camp Travis, Texas, then a sub post of Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio. During their stay Camp Travis was incorporated into Fort Sam, torn down and completely rebuilt as a brigade size cantonment for the 3rd Infantry Brigade, 2d ID. The other brigade, by now an Army brigade the 4th was stationed in Colorado and Wyoming. The 2nd Engineer Regiment was stationed at Fort Logan, Colorado, near Denver. Logan is now a national cemetery, but all the old buildings are still there and it is still a great example for historians as to what a late 19 up to mid 20th century army post looked like. Getting back to Fort Sam. My son in law office is now in one of the barracks buildings built for the 2nd Division. It has been completely gutted of course and modernized in 2010, but the old façade and general layout has been retained. I think the building is on the list of national landmarks. Where the old division headquarters was in Camp Travis days stands Brooke Army Medical Center one of our premier Army hospitals.

The cavalry units of 2d ID today are elements of the 1st, 7th and 14th Cavalry. I think the air cavalry squadron in the aviation brigade is from either the 6th or 17th.

Walter Winchell once remarked during the darkest days of the division in November early December 1950 - "If you have a son in Korea write to him. If you have a son in the Second Division pray for him.

SECOND TO NONE.

[Yan Taylor]

You are welcome Chuck, and as always you are a great source of info.
I think you and I share the same passion for the Battle of the Bulge, and I will endeavour to find some data of the 2nd IDs battle record, a lot of stuff is written about the Airborne Divisions defence of Bastogne and rightly so, but there is a wealth of info concerning this Battle that goes unnoticed and the 2nd ID falls into this category.

Ian.

[quincannon]

Ian: Bastogne would have made little difference if the 2nd and 99th had not held the northern shoulder, and the 28th (not one of my favorites) particularly the 110th Infantry Regiment had not held as long as they did in front of Bastogne.

When I was a kid during Korea, the 2nd Infantry Division was THE division in the eyes of the American public. Every kid went to the army surplus store and bought a 2nd division patch to wear. There was an annual ceremony at the 2nd Division monument in DC, a real big deal in those days for both WWI and WWII vets. Never though I would have a chance to serve in the division but I did, and it made a lasting impression on me. Still have my Indianhead from my uniform of those days.

[benteen]

Jun 6, 2013 2:39:44 GMT -6 Yan Taylor said:

Hi Dan, here are four of easy steps for you to follow if you want an Avatar.

1/ choose a picture of image (I got mine from Google, there is a link on the top directly were you type you messages), just pick a pic and when you find it right click and save it to your desk top.

2/ now go to the forum and log in, then go to profile (this is located next to messages)

3/ now click on the circle called uploaded link and then click on the upload/link delete.

4/ click on the select image button and go to your desk top, and your image should be on there, then just click on your image and press the open button at the bottom right.

That should do it, if you have any problems just ask.

Ian.

Ian,

Thank you. I am going to have my wife follow your instructions, and see what happens. If a no go, Chris has been generous and offered to help also. Of course the avatar will be one of my wifes choosing.What the heck small price to pay for getting rid of that baby head.

Be Well
Dan

[benteen]

Ian/Chris

Thank you fellas, it worked. But of course she was not going to pick the flag raising on Iwo Jima

Be Well
Dan

[fred]

I am not sure if this is the thread, but I thought I read a post where someone-- Chris, was it you?-- asked about bodies being found somewhere near today's visitor center area. Or have I lost it all together?

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Yan Taylor]

Dan, your missus has got a great sense of humour, bravo.

[Yan Taylor]

Hi Chuck; I remember having a conversation with a couple of friends around Christmas time, and I wanted to state the case that the German Type 1944 Panzer Grenadier Battalion was about the best and strongest formation of its kind (the only trouble of course was that this unit could not be kept up to strength).

If we go on paper strength and place the big three Battalions from around the era together we have this (this data was in my documents);

German Type 1944 Panzer Grenadier Battalion

Battalion HQ/Staff
4 x Sd.Kfz 251/3
2 x Sd.Kfz 251/8s

3 x Panzer Grenadier Companies each;
Company HQ
2 x Sd.Kfz 251/3s

3 x Panzer Grenadier Platoons each;
Platoon HQ
1 x Sd.Kfz 251/1
3 x Panzergrenadier Sections
3 x Sd.Kfz 251/1s (9 x LMGs)
1 x Anti-Tank Section
1 x Sd.Kfz 251/17 20mm Gun (2 x 8.8cm Panzerschreck Teams)

Support Platoon
1 x Sd.Kfz 251/17 20mm (2 x MMG Teams)
2 x Sd.Kfz 251/2s 80mm Mortars

1 x Heavy Company
Company HQ
Sd.Kfz 251/17 20mm Gun
Infantry Gun Platoon
2 x Sd.Kfz 251/9s 75mm Guns
Heavy Mortar Platoon
4 x Sd.Kfz 251/1 and 4 x 120mm Mortars

Main Weapons and Men;
17 x Officers & 694 Men
73 x Sd.Kfz 251s
6 x MMGs
6 x 8.8cm Panzerschreck
7 x 20mm Guns
6 x 81mm Mortars
2 x 75mm Guns
4 x 120mm Mortars

British Motorised Battalion 1944

Battalion HQ
2 x Scout Cars
3 x M3 Half-tracks
Signals and Admin
5 x M3 Half-tracks

3 x Motorised Infantry Companies each;
Company HQ (1 x M3 Half-track)
1 x Scout Platoon (9 x Carriers)
3 x Infantry Platoons (4 x M3 Half-tracks)

1 x Support Company
Company HQ (1 x Scout Car + 3 x M3 Half-tracks)

2 x MMG Platoons each
4 x MMGs + 8 x Carriers

Mortar Platoon
2 x 3in Mortars + 2 x Carriers

Anti-Tank Platoon
Platoon HQ (1 x Carrier + Ammo Trucks)
4 x 6 pdr Anti-Tank Guns + 4 x Carriers

Main Weapons and Men;
37 Officers & 782 Men
2 x Scout Cars
42 x Carriers
26 x M3 Half-tracks
4 x MMGs
2 x 3in Mortars
4 x 6 pdr Anti-Tank Guns

U.S. Armoured Infantry Battalion 1944 {not including the 7 x Officers & 68 Men from the Service Company}

Battalion Headquarters
Company HQ
5 x Jeeps + 3 x M3 Half-track

Maintenance Section
1 x Jeep + 1 x M3 Half-track

Administrative, Mess & Supply Section
1 x Truck

Reconnaissance Platoon
Platoon HQ
1 x M3 Half-track
5 x Jeeps

Assault Gun Platoon
Platoon HQ
1 x M3 Half-track
2 x M3 Half-tracks + 3 x M8s 75mm or M4 Shermans 105mm
Ammo Section: M3 Half-track

Mortar Platoon
Platoon HQ
1 x M3 Half-track
3 x M21 81mm Mortars Half-tracks

Machine Gun Platoon
Platoon HQ
1 x M3 Half-track
4 x MMGs + 2 x M3 Half-tracks

3 x Armoured Rifle Companies
Company HQ
1 x Jeep + 1 x M3 Half-track

Maintenance Section
1 x Jeep + 1 x M3 Half-track

Administrative, Mess & Supply Section
1 x Jeep + 1 x M3 Half-track

Antitank Platoon
1 x Jeep + 3 x 57mm Anti-Tank Guns & 3 x M3 Half-track

Three Rifle Platoons each;

Platoon HQ (combined with the 1st Rifle Squad)
1 x M3 Half-track
Mortar Squad
1 x 60mm Mortar + 1 x M3 Half-track
Machine Gun Squad
2 x LMGs + 1 x M3 Half-track
2nd & 3rd Rifle Squads
2 x M3 Half-tracks

Main Weapons and Men;
20 Officers & 896 Men
60 x M3 Half-tracks
4 x MMGs
9 x 60mm Mortars
3 x 57mm Anti-Tank Guns
3 x 81mm Mortars
2 x 75mm M8s or 105mm Sherman

I have tried to keep supply and stuff to a minimum so a few units have been omitted, (have a look at the U.S, Rifle Platoon, the PHQ and the 1st Rifle Squad are merged, never come across that before and I don’t remember actually writing down).
So going on the above, the German Battalion could knock out some serious lead with all the support weapons (besides the MMGs & 120mm Mortars) being self-propelled, and all of it was organic to the Battalion.

Ian.

[Yan Taylor]

Chuck; you will probably know this already but what the hell I will post it anyway.

www.history.army.mil/documents/ETO-OB/2ID-ETO.htm

I don’t think it compares with the Charles B. Macdonald Book.
Ian.

[quincannon]

Ian: That link was from Order of Battle of the ETO, was it not?

Macdonald wrote Company Commander and it propelled him into a career at the Center of Military History. Met him at a formal dinner once, Sadly he died of cancer, which he fought for a very long time as I recall. His Time For Trumpets is one of my favorites. He did a couple for the Center also in the Army Green Book series. All are very good Three Battles in particular.

There is one very big drawback to having so many weapons and vehicles to be manned and maintained in a battalion that is understrength. You have to man and maintain and that price is usually paid in the number of dismounts you can muster. Infantry, must be able to dismount to do its business, fighting on foot, or it ain't infantry.

[Yan Taylor]

I don’t know much about the link Chuck, that is how I received it this morning, I was going to post this but the link looked better.

CG Major General Walter M. Robertson
Divisional Artillery CG Brigadier General John H. Hinds
Assistant Division Commander Colonel John H. Stokes
G-2 Lieutenant Colonel Donald P. Christianson

9th Infantry Regiment
Regimental CO Colonel Chester J. Hirschfelder
1st Battalion CO Lieutenant Colonel William D. McKinley (great-nephew of President McKinley)
2nd Battalion CO Lieutenant Colonel Walter M. Higgins Jr.
3rd Battalion CO Lieutenant Colonel William F. Kernan

23rd Infantry Regiment
Regimental CO Colonel Jay B. Loveless
1st Battalion CO Lieutenant Colonel Hightower
2nd Battalion CO Major Hinsch
3rd Battalion CO Lieutenant Colonel Tuttle
I Company CO Captain Charles B. MacDonald

38th Infantry Regiment
Regimental CO Colonel Francis H. Boos
1st Battalion CO Lieutenant Colonel Frank T. Mildren
2nd Battalion CO Lieutenant Colonel Jack Norris
3rd Battalion CO Lieutenant Colonel Olinto Barsanti

I think the Germans used so much firepower because of the war against the Russians, and also the number of 20mm Guns issued was due to the fact that this weapon could not only be used against the vast numbers of allied fighter but against ground targets too, the Infantry units could muster around 300 men to fight in the conventional role as Infantry men.

Ian.

[quincannon]

Ian: McKinley should have been awarded the MOH in my opinion for his defense of the Twin Villages.

Hinds, Kernan, Mildren, and Barsanti all went on to bigger and better. Jay Loveless was relieved for cause in the very early days of Korea.

Mildren and Barsanti were among the very best.

[fred]

Actually, I think this is a better place to discuss this topic... DC has that "wish they said that..." thread reserved for other things.

Sept 3, 2013 9:17:29 GMT -6 Yan Taylor said:

... how these people can think that those Officers on that hill could simply ride off into the unknown in a combat zone against god knows how many enemy is beyond me, especially with casualties to consider... but there are two things they had to do before leaving, get stabilised and organised, but all they get from some people is criticised.

In my opinion, Ian, you are absolutely correct. And anyone who is interested in the truth-- as opposed to merely pontificating or laying blame... let's see now... Rucio comes to mind-- would sit back and assess what is happening, what has happened, and would make sane decisions based on those assessments. To bloviate about how Benteen should have just by-passed or blown through Reno's command, all for the sake of rushing to Custer's aid (which he really didn't need at that specific time) is nonsensical. There were a lot of factors to consider, and this stupidity about rushing headlong, willy-nilly into the unknown shows an utter lack of reality. Can you imagine people like that running your army or ours?

What in heavens name could be more scary: General Rucio Wild?

Best wishes,
Fred.

[quincannon]

If one fails to realize that all things preplanned can be overcome by events, they in fact have no intellectual capacity.

A case in point: A picnic is planned, it rains, the picnic is moved indoors by deliberate decision. Now the advertisement for that picnic clearly states that the picnic will be held in LBH Park. All preparations for that grand event by those organizing it clearly state that everyone will be at the park at such and such a time, the menu, what food or drink to bring, and that a good time will be had by all (that's an order - You will have fun). So the rain, and thunder and lightning come along, and two choices become evident. You can continue the mission, get soaked and your life placed in danger by lightning or you can move that picnic indoors, and maybe some of the games are canceled, there is less fun being indoors, than enjoying nature and the warm sunshine, but everyone stays dry and lives are preserved. OVERCOME BY EVENTS is not in the cognitive repertoire in Donkeyland.