Benteens orders

[wild]

Ian
Rory could not throw a party

[quincannon]

Ian: All my experience was with light infantry, except "mech week" at the basic course, and that has been more years than I care to remember. So what I say here is purely from memory.

With light infantry we approach an objective and remain in column as long as possible. Two things will force a light unit to move into line. The first is unanticipated hostile action. The second is reaching the PLD or probable line of deployment, which is a line drawn during attack planning where you expect to meet enemy activity or where the terrain tells you that the enemy is most likely to be encountered. It is very easy to move back or forward once in line, as long as it is kept under control by your officers and NCO's. I say easy but it is easy under fire, which is never easy. What I mean here is that if enemy fire should slacken you may move forward by just getting up and moving.

The closest we have now to the dragoon tactics employed by the horse cavalry in the late 19th and the first four decades of the 20th is in mechanized or motorized infantry. They too stay in column to move, but deploy into line (mounted) much earlier. In other words their PLD is much further back from the objective than in the light infantry. They move forward as long as possible, until they are forced by fire to dismount, or (and they usually operate as part of a tank-infantry force)they must dismount to clear an area such as a small village or patch of woods, where anti-armor weapons wait to engage the sides and rear of AFV's Typically this is done while cover is provided by the IFV they dismounted from as well as from the tanks they are operating in cooperation with, thus the dragoon technique of an element staying mounted while the other element dismounts is retained

What I am getting at is that either yesterday with horses, or today with APC's or IFVs going from dismounted to mounted must be done during a pause in the action, or after the action has ended. Same thing back in the day when we were making our first struggling steps in converting old horse cavalry tactics to the helicopter. When we were on the ground, we had to move to the helicopter. That might be fifty meters or a thousand meters, but it still entailed a pause or end of action.

I think Fred was in the 3rd ID when they became mechanized, you might ask him to comment.

[fred]

My God! These idiots at ProBoards!! Why didn't they leave well enough alone? This is so ridiculous to navigate....

Dan... even the Indians said it was a running battle; the markers show it, except in small clusters. Last Stand Hill needs to be lengthened, but the cost of iron is too great.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Yan Taylor]

I get you Chuck; I would guess it was easier to control a Column rather than a line, if troops are in line formation they would be more dispersed thus covering a larger area.

It’s interesting to know that modern U.S. Infantry stay inside there APCs until they reach their objectives (maybe Fred could confirm this Chuck, I would guess it was similar to the Light Infantry riding in helicopters), I recall a chat I had years ago now about the difference between Panzer Grenadiers (mounted in Sd.Kfz 251s) and U.S. Armoured Infantry (mounted in M3 Half-tracks), one of the blokes said that the Americans stayed in there M3s until they got in range of their target before they debussed, and the Germans stayed in there 251s until they were directly on top of theirs, so when they debussed they could use there automatic weapons more effectively (each squad of ten men usually had 2 x MG42s, 2 x MP40s and if they were lucky a couple of StG 44s).

One of the reasons I have mentioned Reno’s inability to re-join the attack once in Skirmish is; if GAC knew that Reno was fixed in place, the main emphasis is now upon Custer to launch the main attack, so rather than Custer supporting Reno, Custer uses Reno as foil to lure and fix the Warriors in place, so Reno is supporting Custer, if you get what I mean.

I am sorry if I am a little Incoherent, I have to rush.

Ian.

[benteen]

Jun 5, 2013 13:19:49 GMT -6 fred said:

My God! These idiots at ProBoards!! Why didn't they leave well enough alone? This is so ridiculous to navigate....

Dan... even the Indians said it was a running battle; the markers show it, except in small clusters. Last Stand Hill needs to be lengthened, but the cost of iron is too great.

Best wishes,
Fred.

Thanks Capt. But wasn't there even 1 Indian that agrees with my theory. A Squaw maybe As to Pro Boards I agree. They fixed something that wasn't broke. Will get some getting use to. As far as an avatar or whatever, you know with my computer skills that baby face is going to be up there for a long time

Be Well
Dan

[quincannon]

Ian: Movement is easier and better for control than a line. Lines are the formations for fighting placing maximum firepower forward.

APC and IFV initially used different techniques. The 113 and before it the M59 were troop carriers with a roof and initially were found in transportation battalions with the intention of attaching a company of APC's to a battle group to give them mobility. Fred's first unit the 3rd ID conducted the first experiments with first the 59 and then the 113 making them organic to the infantry battle group (under the Pentomic concept) and later in mechanized infantry battalions under ROAD. Before that all we had were armored infantry in armored divisions, and a couple of separate battalions. Once ROAD was implemented the mechanized and armored divisions differed only in the mix in numbers of tank and infantry battalions, either five and six or six and five. The division base DivArty, and the Support Commanders were identical. In addition each infantry division had a brigades worth of mechanization in most cases, usually two tank battalions and a mech battalion.

The Infantry Fighting Vehicles (IFV's) mounted a cannon instead of a machine gun along with a TOW launcher. The idea was to accompany the tanks all the way and not slowing momentum. That is OK if you have a death wish I suppose. I think their doctrine has changed now but I am not privy to the fine details.

With the helicopter we would land at the closest suitable place to the objective and carry out the attack on foot. The mounted portion of the dragoon technique was carried out by the armed, later the attack helicopter. In essence all three adopt some form of the dragoon tactical book. Different weapons, different mounts.

Myself I want to stay as far away from a APC or IFV as I can. The exception is that I see a very good role for the Stryker or Stryker like wheeled vehicle in the threats we will face in the future. I follow that progress very closely. They still need more off road mobility though.

To me, and I have mentioned it many times before, I see modern cavalry in the air, horse, foot, and guns, modern dragoons.

[montrose]

IFV tactics depend on the situation. In GWOT, units try to stay mounted when facing mines and IEDs. The US Army has no peer competitor that isn't in NATO. Any opponent will have inferior technology, and asymmetric tactics.

[mac]

Montrose
Love your avatar!

[benteen]

Jun 5, 2013 17:08:09 GMT -6 montrose said:

IFV tactics depend on the situation. In GWOT, units try to stay mounted when facing mines and IEDs. The US Army has no peer competitor that isn't in NATO. Any opponent will have inferior technology, and asymmetric tactics.

Colonel Montrose,

Good to see you back. I agree with Mac, great avatar from Kellys Heroes, one of my favorites, especially the song "Burning Bridges"

Be Well
Dan

[bc]

Jun 4, 2013 7:05:46 GMT -6 quincannon said:

Mac: If mystery is what people seek in Custer and LBH they really come to the wrong place. If you want a mystery waiting to be unraveled take up the search for Amelia Earhart.

I've been following Tighar for over 20 years. About ever since they were taking trips to Nikumaroro. Ric Gillespie always had some pretty far fetched theories and each trip he would produce something to create another mystery and then get people to fund another trip to the island. Just over and over again. He had to use a large amount of stretching to say he had something that might be evidence of her being on the island. One of his latest large donors is Tim Mellon of the Mellon bank family. He has been raising a little cane on their forum about problems on the last trip that he helped fund as it seems like their equipment was broken more than not and that certain information may have been withheld from him and some other things that were misleading.

Personally, I think that island is probably one of the better prospects but all these expeditions just seemed to be half-hearted attempts which only scratched the surface of what they were looking for. Just like the last one. There are countless under water vehicles that could handle the depths and do the research they need and instead they get a company with flaky equipment and then they never have enough time to finish anything. Par for the course so far. Reminds me of a bunch of these reality shows, Jesse James comes to mind, where there is a dramatic set back and then leaving you with the impression there is more to the mystery that is still unsolved until they get more money.

The next 3 million dollar trip will go like this: They will use a ROV that won't go much deeper than 631 feet. Then if there is something there, they won't be able to recover enough to make a 100% identification necessitating another expedition after that. If there isn't then they will still need to come back with something that will go all the way to the bottom to look around. A perpetual paycheck.

I'm still hopeful. And who knows maybe she landed there and then the Japs picked her up.

bc

[Yan Taylor]

Hi Dan, here are four of easy steps for you to follow if you want an Avatar.

1/ choose a picture of image (I got mine from Google, there is a link on the top directly were you type you messages), just pick a pic and when you find it right click and save it to your desk top.

2/ now go to the forum and log in, then go to profile (this is located next to messages)

3/ now click on the circle called uploaded link and then click on the upload/link delete.

4/ click on the select image button and go to your desk top, and your image should be on there, then just click on your image and press the open button at the bottom right.

That should do it, if you have any problems just ask.

Ian.

[lew]

Took me 15 minutes to figure out how to post anything!

[Rabble]

Hi Ian

You must really feed the Lions before you send them to OZ. I couldn't see any bites anyway!
We live in Perth, but didn't go to the game as it is a terrible ground for Rugby. It is in the middle of the largest Australian Rules ground in the country and you need binoculars to see anything!

regards

Ron

[Yan Taylor]

Hi Ron, nice to meet you, I am a Rugby League man myself, but unlike Richard I follow the other code at international level, a lot to look forward to this year, the Ashes and the RL World Cup.

Ian.

[Yan Taylor]

Hi Chuck; the doctrine of Infantry Fighting Vehicles was first started by the Germans and was developed by other nations, here are the main Vehicles;
SPz. 12-3 (Germany)
M.113 (U.S.A.)
AMX-VCI (France)
FV432 (Britain)
BMP-2 (Russia)
BTR-50 (Russia)
You are correct when you mentioned about these AFVs being death traps, they would attract a lot of ordnance.

Remember when we discussed U.S. Regiments a while ago, well I have just been looking at the makeup of the 2nd Infantry Division, I still remember the chats we had about the combined arms used in this formation;

Brigade Combat Team (Armoured) maybe Fred's field?

Brigade HQ
2 x Combined Arms Battalions
1 x Cavalry Squadron
1 x Battalion of Field Artillery
1 x Special Troops Battalion (Inc Signals/Intel)
1 x Brigade Support Battalion (Supply/Medical/support Coys)

3 x Stryker BTCs (Motorized) your field Chuck.

Brigade HQ
1 x Brigade Special Troops Battalion
1 x Cavalry Squadron
3 x Infantry Battalions
1 x Anti-Tank Company
1 x Battalion of Field Artillery
1 x Brigade Support Battalion (Supply/Medical/support Coys)
3 x Companies (Engineer/Signals/ Intel)

Brigade HQ (Helicopter)
1 x Air Traffic Service Group
1 x Assault Battalion
1 x Support Battalion
1 x Recon/Attack Battalion
1 x Aviation Support Battalion

A well balanced combination with three main components, Heavy (Armoured), Medium (Motorized) & Light (Helicopter).

Ian.