Benteens orders

[Yan Taylor]

Good morning everyone; I really don’t know why Bill Keogh is attempting to do a time line, if he wants info on the Reno/valley fight he only has to buy a copy of Vol 27, #1 of the Research Review Magazine (Journal of the Little Big Horn Associates), in there a young buck called Wagner has nailed it with an excellent article plus a perfect time line.

Yes Chuck is right, you all must get an Avatar (I see someone has altered my message, it was longer than just the Widnes Rugby League segment), you don’t want to look like crash test dummies, and it will make you all unique instead of looking like a collective.

Jag; when you said ‘’Custer wasn’t waiting’’; well I don’t think he was waiting for Reno. Once Reno’s Battalion had formed Skirmish Lines, they were committed, there horses would have been placed in a safe place away from the line so any remounting and forming up would have taken time, plus the fact that even if GAC thought that the Warriors were simply trying to block Reno would mean that he would be kept busy, and it would be near on impossible to disengage and remount to attack whilst the Warriors remained in strength to his front.

So that leaves Benteen, and if Benteen had a note ordering him to bring packs, well I reckon GAC would have time to take tea and hand out the cookies whilst waiting for a bunch of tired and thirsty mules to catch up with his Battalion.

Hi Richard; sorry to tear you away from the Lions match, do you mean the speed Benteen’s march after he got the note?

Ian.

[quincannon]

Ian: You can easily type in what was lost. Every time I see yours though I think it should say Minnesota instead of Widnes. No matter.

Keogh thinks of himself as the go to guy on all LBH matters. If the man understood tactics as well as he researched I think he would be pretty fair at it and maybe deserving of a following. As it is though his perceptions about personalities really is a self inflicted wound when it comes to putting all these pieces together. He did it to himself. He is not likely to change. In addition Fred did, he didn't. Were he so smart he would have done as well.

Ian, people that have never had to move troops from one place to another, and move them tactically really have no concept of the time it takes, considering everything. That is not really their fault in not having done it, but it is frustrating to read pronouncements from them when you have done it and know better.

[Yan Taylor]

Hi Chuck; as you well know due to your experience, if a Company Commander gets the order via radio from Battalion HQ to move out, then he has to inform his second in/C or his Company Sergeant to pass the order down to his Platoon Commanders, this takes time even with modern methods, if your support Platoon has deployed its hardware then all this too has to be broken down and made ready to move.

So if we go back in time to 1876, Reno would have to give the order via Hodgeson (maybe by Trumpet) and each Troop Commander would relay this order to the 1st Sergeant, and I suppose the following would take place; each Troop would move back by Platoon to were the horses are being held, once all three Companies are fully mounted, Reno would give the order to advance.

This all sounds obvious, and I bet any Cavalry worth its salt would have trained for this manoeuvre many times back at their station, but it still takes time and if the enemy in front of you are still active then the process may have to be altered, you may have to keep one Troop in Skirmish (probably for cover) whilst the other two mount up.

Custer would or should have known this, so I don’t think he had any notion that Reno would come charging up the valley once he had formed Skirmish.

The name Vikings comes from the Danish who landed on the marsh in Widnes around the 9th century, and the Widnes RL team adopted the name.

Ian.

[jag]

Jun 4, 2013 9:49:09 GMT -6 Yan Taylor said:

Jag; there is no need for the attitude, Custer distancing himself from Reno and Benteen was similar to your statement, ‘’ordering out death warrants’’, (BOOKS) why don’t you write one my friend, and I don’t eat carrion.

Ian.

retracted....

[wild]

Hi Ian
Jag was only using Martin's speed to compute the distance to Benteen but Benteen was not stationery;he was closing on Martin.Thus his speed had to be included in the computation.
Regards.

[quincannon]

Ian: Each move is different. Some you just get up and go. Others require you to first assemble what you have in some sort of logical order, then move. The movements themselves are all different as well dependent upon terrain and the enemy situation. If it is largely open as it was at LBH you can move faster and still be secure. More restricted terrain in either ground formation or vegetation requires a slower more deliberate movement.

In the situation described, remounting with an eye on forward movement and the resumption of attack, would require first disengagement while in contact, the most difficult of moves, then attacking into an unbroken foe, with no surprise left in your bag of tricks. First off I don't see why anyone would wish to do it. Does not make a lot of sense to me. Now were your adversary drawing off of you to go somewhere else or initiating a retrograde that changes the conditions considerably, but I don't believe anything of the kind applies at LBH. If it does I have really missed something.,

[Yan Taylor]

I never said he did order the deaths, but you certainly did, I was just repeating it;

‘’In less than 30 minutes time, Custer ordered the death of every man in his immediate command’’

What gets me is, I was initially agreeing with you, so in a way I was not only believing your hogwash, I was wallowing in it too.

I will also add that when you returned and started posting, your attitude was well received, and was also noted by a few members, but this has come to a halt, and it looks like you have reverted to type.

Ian.

[fred]

Jun 5, 2013 2:58:18 GMT -6 Yan Taylor said:

... if he wants info on the Reno/valley fight he only has to buy a copy of Vol 27, #1 of the Research Review Magazine (Journal of the Little Big Horn Associates), in there a young buck called Wagner has nailed it with an excellent article plus a perfect time line.

Kind words, indeed, Ian; and I thank you very much.

That is actually the first "public airing" of any part of that work, and so far, the feedback I have received is extremely positive. Encouraging, especially since the article is very controversial and slaps down strongly 137 years worth of some accepted "dogma." To me it sheds new light on the valley fighting, something I think DC-- as well as others-- would be pleased about because it tends to reinforce some of what he has been saying for years.

Anyway, thanks again, Ian. You are very kind.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[jag]

Jun 5, 2013 8:50:10 GMT -6 Yan Taylor said:

I never said he did order the deaths, but you certainly did, I was just repeating it;

‘’In less than 30 minutes time, Custer ordered the death of every man in his immediate command’’

What gets me is, I was initially agreeing with you, so in a way I was not only believing your hogwash, I was wallowing in it too.

I will also add that when you returned and started posting, your attitude was well received, and was also noted by a few members, but this has come to a halt, and it looks like you have reverted to type.

Ian.

Well, then say so. Don't beat around the bush. Statements retracted. Apologies

[Yan Taylor]

You are welcome Fred, I give credit where it’s due and as I said the other day, ‘’A True Captains Knock’’.

Anyone who is interested in this battle and more importantly the valley fight, must try and get a copy of this magazine, because it is the best description I have every read of the valley fight. The details concerning who took part, Reno’s Battalion formation and of course a time line makes it a must read article.

Ian.

[Yan Taylor]

No problem Jag

[Yan Taylor]

Chuck; you have hit the nail on the head, that is exactly what I was trying to get across, when Custer saw Reno in Skirmish order with enemy to his front, he must have knew that Reno was fully committed and would not be able to disengage.

Ian.

[Yan Taylor]

Richard; I thought it was, but I cannot help you with an answer on this one.
Did you watch the Lions game?, I hope that Rory Best does not play against Australia, his throws at the line outs were rubbish, that Leigh Halfpenny can kick though.

Ian.

[benteen]

Richard,
Just the man I wanted to talk to. I had reason to go over Capt Benteens RCOI statements and came across this , which made me think of your opinion that the Custer fight was a running gun battle.Now keep in mind I have my own theory about Capt Keogh starting it by accident etc, but as crazy as it may be, there is a slight, very remote possibility that I may be dead wrong. Capt Benteen states the following on Re-Direct Examination..... "The bodies of Dr Lord, Lt Porter, Lt Harrington and Lt Sturgis were never found. If they had had lines,the Officers would have died with there men. Lines could have been formed but lines were not formed; They probably had no tome to form lines. I think possibly that is the just conclusion. Gen Custer might have fled the field and saved a part of his command, and I think discretion would have been the better part of valor had he done that"

It would appear that Capt Benteen agrees with your opinion of a running gun fight. Good job Richard
Now if I could only get an Officer that was there to agree with my opinion.....or a mule driver....or broken feather the Lakota pony hearder

Be Well
Dan

[wild]

Hi Dan
Well I would suggest that it is more correct to say I agree with Capt Benteen's rather than he agreeing with mine.I think Wallace also paints a descriptive picture of a running desperate retreat.
But my thanks for your generious "praise" it comes as balm after all the brickbats that recently came in my direction.
Best Wishes
Richard