Benteens orders

[jag]

Guess who's trotting out the Nancy Drew mystery now. In less than 30 minutes time, Custer ordered the death of every man in his immediate command. And. It wouldn't have mattered if Reno was an 1/16th of a mile away or Benteen was the same. Yeah. Right. Wait'n for the book to come out on this one. Lets see who eats crow first. "Custer wasn't waiting"... Remember.

[Yan Taylor]

I Like the new Avatar Chuck,''Get your men in order and take the attack forward''

Ian.

[Yan Taylor]

Jag; there is no need for the attitude, Custer distancing himself from Reno and Benteen was similar to your statement, ‘’ordering out death warrants’’, (BOOKS) why don’t you write one my friend, and I don’t eat carrion.

Ian.

[quincannon]

JAG: There is no obligation on your part to either like or agree with my answers. That does not mean of course that I am obligated to change them in any way.

Ian: I am glad you like the avatar. That is the Follow Me Statue in front of Infantry Hall, Building 4 at Fort Benning. The signature line is a composite from both the march "Take the High Ground" and the poem "I am the Infantry"

[quincannon]

Fred: I see that Keogh on the other board has created an all new timeline thread that is quite extensive. So far no one has posted. Maybe they are waiting for your new book?

[jag]

Jun 4, 2013 9:49:15 GMT -6 quincannon said:

JAG: There is no obligation on your part to either like or agree with my answers. That does not mean of course that I am obligated to change them in any way.

Ian: I am glad you like the avatar. That is the Follow Me Statue in front of Infantry Hall, Building 4 at Fort Benning. The signature line is a composite from both the march "Take the High Ground" and the poem "I am the Infantry"

QC granted about 'obligations' and 'change' don't take issue with that at all. I take issue with aphorisms and axioms that are vague when it comes to applying reality.


"Victory has a hundred fathers, but defeat is an orphan," has been wrongly applied to military commanders since humans started casting the first stone and then blaming the other guy. Seeking to shift blame for one's own shortcomings isn't natural, just stupid is as stupid does, monkey see monkey do; and generals have seemed particularly more interested in finger pointing than telling the truth down through the ages. I'd equate it to this axiom rather than lay blame for something that could have never been; The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind.

No rational person would dare make such haughty claims as that 'orphan' one above, while knowing full well that the Government and others in government were to blame for much of what went wrong at the BLBH, just as in Vietnam. Still, Intellectuals solve problems: geniuses prevent them. The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function. Its that monkey thing. You know.

Sure. For every human problem there is a solution that is simple, neat and wrong. Things do not change; we change. It's not what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so.

We fall into error if we attribute to strategy a power independent of tactical results. A general cannot avoid a battle when the enemy is resolved upon it at all hazards.

Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. What is history but a fable agreed upon. If you are lost--"climb, conserve, and confess."

Courage is the price that life extracts for granting peace. The soul that knows it not knows no release from little things. I never blame myself when I'm not hitting, I just blame the bat. And if it keeps up, I change bats.

Never interrupt an enemy while he is making a mistake. It is easier to get into something than to get out of it. No plan survives contact with the enemy. And; If you are not criticized, you may not be doing much. Do something even if it is wrong.

[quincannon]

JAG: Here's another old adage for you - Never fight for the same ground twice. Thought that was a good idea when I first heard it. Still do.

It is very hard to explain to someone that has never experienced it the concept of command responsibility. It does not mean that any mistake may be cause for dismissal. It may, but most often it is a series of things which cause your senior to lose confidence in your ability to command. Also responsibility and blame are two different things that may be shared by one person, but often times are not. A dirty rifle in Company C. The blame is on the man who did not clean his weapons, The blame for not checking goes all the way up the chain of command from squad leader on. The responsibility rests with the commander.

In this particular instance Custer the commander's actions were so out of line with accepted tactics, doctrine, and procedures, that had he survived, he would have most likely faced charges of dereliction of duty. That is debatable of course, but as a minimum anyone who would objectively look at his performance at LBH, and not conclude that they have lost confidence in Custer's ability needs to be relieved themselves, and given a nice long rest. If Custer gave the orders that generated into the debacle at LBH he is both to blame and responsible. Others of his subordinates may have had a part to play as well, and if so some blame should attach, but Custer alone is responsible. He and he alone.

[jag]

In the first, aphorism, That would entirely depend upon what was left in the 'same ground' that might be of significant value. Just because we've never experienced it within 150 years or so. Doesn't make this one something so grand when one is fighting on one's own soil for life, limb, property and family. Specially family, if those had been left within the confines of the 'same ground' and unknown at the time. Damn aphorisms, slogans and axioms are as worth much as the toilet paper they were composed on.

No rational person would dare make such haughty claims as that 'orphan' one above (And I'll go one better, what you just stated), while knowing full well that the Government and others in government were to blame for much of what went wrong at the BLBH, just as in Vietnam. You know this. You know who was responsible. You know who was to blame. AS did every GD grunt who ever lit upon agent orange land. And it sure the hell wasn't a commander who went there with single shot pea shooters and a six gun to charge with and a much needed hope and desire that the Indians would run as their only chance in hell. You can't blame the commander here George of the Jungle. He just did what the hell he was told to do. And he tried to do it with inferior weaponry that even you wouldn't have dared to have tried.

[quincannon]

JAG: The fight for the ground I speak of is this fight for the ground of the sum total of your posts, on this particular area. I am not going to engage in it again. The first reason is that whatever I have to say, falls upon your deaf ears and any hope I would have of convincing or even informing you of my position is hopeless. The second reason is that this is a matter where I am devoid of even a rats ass worth of caring about. It is far outside my area of interest.

Now I don't know what your heartburn is with Vietnam, or the sum total of conflict in general and I don't care. You can grind that axe with someone else.

I don't even care if you wish to nominate George Armstrong Custer to sainthood and he then forever to dwell with the Archangels in Paradise. Custer was in command, Custer Gave the orders. Custer was responsible. If you care to further argue these points may I suggest you find the nearest mirror.

[jag]

Jun 4, 2013 14:08:31 GMT -6 quincannon said:

JAG: The fight for the ground I speak of is this fight for the ground of the sum total of your posts, on this particular area. I am not going to engage in it again. The first reason is that whatever I have to say, falls upon your deaf ears and any hope I would have of convincing or even informing you of my position is hopeless. The second reason is that this is a matter where I am devoid of even a rats ass worth of caring about. It is far outside my area of interest.

Now I don't know what your heartburn is with Vietnam, or the sum total of conflict in general and I don't care. You can grind that axe with someone else.

I don't even care if you wish to nominate George Armstrong Custer to sainthood and he then forever to dwell with the Archangels in Paradise. Custer was in command, Custer Gave the orders. Custer was responsible. If you care to further argue these points may I suggest you find the nearest mirror.

Yes sir Colonel sir. Whatever you say Colonel sir. SALUTE!
With all due respect Colonel sir. All aphorisms, slogans and axioms to grind aside, sir. We lost that one too, sir. And there wasn't an American soul on that god forsaken ground that didn't know who's fault that was, sir. And it had absolutely nothing to do with the MACV. And everything to do with those brittle heads in Washington.

[quincannon]

And if you expect me to argue with your last JAG, you have also come to the wrong place.

None of that changes the responsibility of the commander of course, but it seems that you are unable to differentiate between those that get the nation in trouble, and those who get their soldiers on the battlefield in trouble. You may continue in the fairy land of self delusion and the shifting of responsibility if you wish to. For me I have lived a happy life taking responsibility for my own actions and for the actions of those I am and was responsible for. I would have it no other way, because were I to try to absolve myself of responsibility and shift blame, I could not live with myself. It is easy to do I suppose, but deep down I would always know I was lying to myself. Honesty begins with a good hard look in the mirror.

So I don't know what is driving this recent train of yours about Vietnam, and I don't particularly care. It was long ago. We lost men that need not have been lost, and there is not one thing that can be done about it now, except honor their sacrifice and resolve not to make the same mistakes again.

Why is it that you and so many others think that just because a person has worn a uniform, made a career out of wearing a uniform, they all think, and act the same way, that they are all are in lock step, never seeing a war they did not want to fight? I know a few like that I guess. Most of them are board certified dumb asses. In the main though they are educated men and women, many schooled in history and political science, that know most wars are totally unnecessary, and are a total waste of human resources and national treasure. They do what they do, because good citizens like you pay hard men to do hard things in their name. That too is simple. And in return they ask nothing and for the most part are not disappointed.

I will tell you this though, my own personal view. I never take credit for any success I may achieve, for there is always someone that paved the way for success. Failures are my own. No one ever made me make a bad decision. I made them, and I alone am responsible.

[fred]

Jun 4, 2013 11:47:26 GMT -6 quincannon said:

Fred: I see that Keogh on the other board has created an all new timeline thread that is quite extensive. So far no one has posted. Maybe they are waiting for your new book?

QC,

I saw that. Maybe I should say I noticed it. Haven't read any of it because I already know how he starts and how it is tainted by his distortions. He-- like Gray-- is out to prove Reno and Benteen malingered on Reno Hill, so he chooses what he wants rather than accounting for surrounding events and accounts that differ. I read one of his posts-- a briefer one; he bores me-- and it was way off the mark and just silly. He relies too much on his favorite "specifics" rather than the more realistic "relative" accounts. It is worse than Gray's stuff.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[quincannon]

Fred: I do see that he has made one post. Probably another attempt of his to talk to himself. Never fear though, I did not have expectations of "Gone With The Wind" or even "Lost Horizons" although everything he writes does have overtones of glue sniffing in Shangri La, but frankly I don't give a damn.
Maybe I'll think about that tomorrow.

Now to important business. You must get an avatar. I had to call in serious reinforcements this morning to produce my own. The question is will it be a Hoya or a Saxa? Will it have overtones of the law or foreign service? Will it have a signature line something like Gonzaga Sucks? The world wonders!!!

[bc]

Yep, definitely have to get an avatar with this new board. I happened to have a photobucket tab open with all my pics handy. It was easy to change the profile.

On the other board I was kinda stunned to learn that a bunch of work can be deleted with one wrong push of a delete button.

bc

[wild]

HI jag
I think your calculation for the distance between Custer and Benteen based on Martin's speed should also include Benteen's speed.It is the closing speed that should be used.
Best Wishes