Benteens orders

[Yan Taylor]

Steve, I got that order of march from a book called ‘’In Custer’s Shadow by Ronald Hamilton’’ the author says that; Reno decided to follow the movement started by Weirs Company D in the direction presumably taken by Custer. And Moylan’s Company A had the responsibility to look after the eight or so wounded.

It took a considerably time for Company A to prepare to move. Reno finally gave the order to mount up and started to the command towards Weir Point. Benteen had left a few minutes before to see for himself what was going on.

The pack train was quickly strung out along the bluffs and movement was slow, Moylan’s Company A was straggling behind with the wounded and he told McDougall that he couldn’t keep up, so McDougall sent half of his Company to assist him.

So I can only answer your questions with what I know from this book and that is; Reno seemed to prefer following Weir’s previous trail then back down the Ford A route and the only times I have for the length of time Benteen stayed on Reno hill is Grey’s and he gets it to around 42 minutes (but I don’t know how valid his times are).

But we can always go for obvious one ‘’Reno didn’t want to go down that valley again’’

And did Reno despatch Lt. Hare to follow Weirs trail and make contact with Custer, it may have been the return of Hare and his report that led to Reno moving in that direction rather than Ford A.

Ian.

[wild]

Now if this is right, were is the reference to Benteen doing is own thing and simply moving out and leaving Reno and the wounded behind?
Benteen's own evidence RCOI.


Custer may have thought that a combined force Reno/Benteen (followed by the train) may come up through the village heading north and not over the rough terrain he had just endured.
So if Custer had a notion that this was the more likely outcome, why would this alter his decision to move to Ford D.
Custer may have thought is one assumption
Ford D is another assumption.
How does assumption 1 effect assumption 2.A job for the mad hatter I assume.

[wild]

AZ
I argued there that Benteen complied with Reno's order by staying long enough for Reno to get organized during the time the pack train came up
Benteen was under Reno's command.
To argue that Benteen's was temporally under his command and that he Benteen could leave whenever he decided is a total misunderstanding of the command and control system.
Cheers

[wild]

Hello Jag
Thank you for your attempt to moderate and deflect incoming but you must not go out on a limb for me.
They are US military and Americans and blood is thicker than water.So while the verbiage is crude it is infantile and does not bother me.
I comment on anything that is of interest to me and try to hold the line of probability that's all.
Best Regards
Richard

[fred]

Jag,

I appreciate your efforts here... I really do. You needn't, however, "preserve" anything I post; I have no intention of pulling it down. As for my usage of "I," "me," "mine," "my," etc., what would you prefer me to use?

And as for "opinions," I think it is safe to say some are more informed than others. When someone posts supporting "evidence" and someone else attempts to knock it down with no support, what do we think of that? If you look on the other boards-- as I know you do-- there is a character over there named Mike Griffith. All this clown does is parrot the writings of someone who wasn't there or interprets the words of some who were, leaving out some meaningful caveats... as long, of course, as they meet with his "opinion." Someone like that is just as dangerous as the guy trying to knock down supported opinion. The danger in all this is that new people come here for a serious discussion and are treated to unsupported and unsupportable claptrap that really is nothing but opinion. There are those who are just not interested in the truth, simply because they would be proven wrong. Some question my "ego"; I would submit that the questioning should be in the other direction.

As far as I am concerned-- and I am sure you and everyone else will be startled at this-- much of what I post here I no longer consider "opinion," I consider it fact. And I think that would fit John Gray's bill as readily as Richard Fox' or Bill "keogh" Rini's. You disregard that at your own historical peril.

Now, for anyone who feels about me as I feel about "wild" or Mike Griffith, that's fine. Do what I do: ignore the posts.

And make no mistake about this: these recent responses of mine are in answer to someone else's posts... and not "wild's." Like I have said, I have no use for the man... the men. I enjoy reading what you put up; it is informed at least.

Hope you are doing well, Jag.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[AZ Ranger]

Jag

I think that their are a few here that have enough expetise and/or study to do a "finding of fact". That is consistent with my personal experiences within our court systems and of course my own bias. Opinions can be evaluated in a court system and then there is a finding of fact either by jury or judge.

Do they get reversed. Yes

My refusing to acknowledge wild is his own doing. Don't call me dishonest and expect my to value anything you have to say. Since I believe him to be a liar his opinions hold no value to me. And as you have pointed out most things posted here are opinions. It would be wasting my time to read his opinions.


AZ Ranger

[quincannon]

JAG: The breeding of a bastard child always shows despite their attempts to dress themselves, as do other men, in an effort to gain acceptance in their company. This is always followed by first resentment, then hatred. Eventually they become the engine of their own destruction, for resentment and hatred consumes both mind and soul. The bastards of this world have the clock, and the decent have the time.

[wild]

Since I believe him to be a liar his opinions hold no value to me
AZ passes himself off as a fairminded man.A man experienced in the justice system.The justice he affords me is to call me a liar without posting the offending evidence.
AZ altered definitions of the word science and was called on it.His tactic was dishonest and I stand over that description.

As for Fred;everything he has said of me he has said of his now friends.I have his PMs.Everything he accuses me of he praised and supported not so long ago.I have his PMs.
If you are in his tent pissing out then you are a great fellow but if you are pissing in well.................

Quinncannon enjoys my contributions.They offer him a challenge,more entertaining than counting soldiers with a certain person.

So gentlemen I'm here for the long haul come what may.I reply and comment for a wider audience than you boyscouts.
And if it was not for me this board would be as interesting as quinncannon's ramblings on Hicky Hock and his bandjo band.
Best Regards

[wild]

Sept 4, 2013 10:21:33 GMT -6 quincannon said:

JAG: The breeding of a bastard child always shows despite their attempts to dress themselves, as do other men, in an effort to gain acceptance in their company. This is always followed by first resentment, then hatred. Eventually they become the engine of their own destruction, for resentment and hatred consumes both mind and soul. The bastards of this world have the clock, and the decent have the time.

The book of Quinncannon chapter two verse 6.Now brethren let us lift up our voices and praise the lord.Hymn 26 I will braketh the spear.

[Yan Taylor]

Hello Jag, long time no see my friend, I trust you are well and are going to hang around.

Ian.

[benteen]

There are two schools of thought on Reno/Benteen. One which I subscribe to is that both these officers did their best under the conditions given them. The other blames them for everything. I don't wish to get into a debate about it, we have been over it a hundred times and I don't believe anyone at this stage of the game is going to change their opinion. But there is one thing I would like to clear up once and for all.

On the other board a gentleman brought up what has been brought up before about Benteen hating Custer and that's why he didn't go to him.

I pose this question to anyone in the forum ......

I am fairly certain that men have died as a result of an Officers poor judgement or plain incompetence, or because of a commanders ego.

However does anyone know of an Officer who intentionally allowed hundreds of his brother Soldiers/Marines be killed because he simply didn't like someone. If so please give the date of his dishonorable discharge, or length of time in the Brig/Stockade, or the date of his execution. Or all 3.


Be Well
Dan

[quincannon]

No.

I have heard of others, other than Benteen accused of it. Sam Houston for instance had no love whatsoever for Fannin. Nothing of the kind beyond the accusation stage has ever been brought to my attention by someone mentioning it to me, or coming across it in my reading.. This type of stuff usually, and only surfaces, when the person raising the issue has no answer and wishes to pretend he does.

What surprises me though is that those that say and post this type stuff do not realize, that had Benteen's hatred been so intense for Custer, so homicidally intense, one would think that the best revenge against Custer would have been to save his bacon, thus humiliating him to such an extent he could not show his face around the man again. Think about that for a moment or two.

This same fellow claims Reno was a drunk. Then when challenged says he cannot prove it, but goes on to say that numerous authors say he drank at lot that day. So therefore because others say it and in the absence of proof one relegates a man to history as a drunk. Well if you can't prove something of that nature why say it? Why do what your actions just did? That person long dead, is not hurt by what is said. The only one hurt is the one who makes or repeats the allegation without proof.

That is one reason I believe Donovan did a much better job with his Alamo book than the one on LBH. That is another reason I resign Philbrick's to the pile labeled "To be recycled as toilet paper" There is another two such books on the Alamo that are even lower down in the cesspool than Philbrick's on LBH. I will give you the names by PM if you wish, but I would not dare repeat them in a public forum, for fear of transmitting some communicable disease ore the planet.

[Gatewood]

Dan, as far as Benteen's supposed hatred of Custer, I wonder if that has been blown out of proportion through retelling over all these years. There is no doubt that Benteen didn't care for Custer and held him in low regard, even contempt, but the contemporary record does not provide much as evidence that he just out and out hated him, certainly to the extent of purposely placing Custer and, more importantly, the men with him at risk. However, it seems that this 'hatred' is an accepted fact on these boards, but, again, I wonder if that is just not the result of 140 years of someone saying it, then someone else saying it because the first person did, and so on until it becomes ingrained in the record when it may not have been true at all.

[Dark Cloud]

I agree, and have so said for a long time. First, rescuing Custer has all the plusses and none of the minuses of allowing a bunch of people you know be killed with their friends around you. Second, had anyone thought that, Benteen would likely have taken a 'stray bullet' at night and deserved it. Only one of the reasons Benteen would have deserved it would have been they needed everybody they could get their hands on to man a weapon to preserve themselves. (Although, I actually think it possible, if not probable, the guy who whined and would not attack to drive off the Indians might have met that exact fate at Benteen's hands, as such could not be tolerated and everybody agreed. Soldiers attack standing up and no injuries, but the guy peering over fox hole gets it between the eyes?)

It's also been my opinion that the attraction of the battle to a lot of guys has nothing to do with Custer or the battle at all beyond it's being a malleable event that can be utilized to address their own life issues, which is why the most improbable scenarios devoid of sense or possibility are the ones most defiantly offered. I'm quite convinced that Benteen is hated by those susceptible to the homoerotic crush too many have on Custer, because - as was recently said again - gods cannot be brought down absent betrayal. Also, Benteen was a southern officer for the north, and resentment from southerners might play a role. Third, Benteen strikes me as familiar ground to many (not all) vets I've met from the South through the Korean war: smooth, class conscious, elite and snooty at times and racist at times but absolutely the guys you want to fight with, not against, and to be your wing man in the bar working the women. It was a big deal to be respected by him, and those that didn't get it resented it. Suspect many recent vets have met Benteen's like and hated them, and they can transfer the anger here, requiring no courage or time in Leavenworth.

Benteen WAS a superior person with the confidence that gives, sort of like British aristocracy's better lights. Custer sensed and resented it, as did many. This is very common and not a huge deal. I don't think Custer would have let Reno be wiped out without trying to support him, either.

[quincannon]

One of Wellington's subordinates at Waterloo was once married to Wellington's sister. He ran off with some other woman, and the scandal disgraced both Wellington's sister and touched the Wellesley family. That intense dislike for the officer did not prevent Wellington from working with the man in battle. Perhaps not quite the same, but very similar I would think.

So Dan, DC brings up a good point. He does not think Custer would allow Reno to get overcome and slaughtered. I don't either, and probably for the same reason. I seem to remember though that you have mentioned a time or two or ten, that you thought Custer hung Reno out to dry. So are you saying that Benteen would not have done, what you believe by your posts that Custer did? Are you applying one standard to one, and another to the other? The motivation of self satisfaction or more glory or whatever, is indeed the same root evil as homicidal level hatred. So then where would be the dishonorable discharge, the term of prison, or the date of execution?