Benteens orders

[fred]

If you cannot get the Bonafede map, try the McElfresh map. McElfresh is a "drawing," but superbly done. Here is the Website:

www.mcelfreshmap.com/index.php?order

My advice, with any of these maps, is to buy two of them.

Regardless, you will not find 3,411 on any of these maps... only the USGS topographical map.

"3,411" was an elevation point I tracked down when I was writing an article about DeRudio's sighting of Custer on the bluffs. As I was reading the Martini and DeRudio accounts I literally measured their distances and they tracked exactly to the 3,411 marker. As far as I know, no one had ever done that before and certainly no one had ever used "3,411."

If you get the McElfresh map, let me know and I will tell you where, exactly, on that map 3,411 would be located.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Dark Cloud]

This isn't fast and loose. This is Custer immobile, listening to the firefight on the river and doing squat about it. If Reno's guys were slaughtered, how would it be possible for Custer to pat that into shape had he survived? He doesn't have to have the warm and fuzzies for Reno, and he knows everyone's looking at him. He headed for the LBH to cross it with all five, thinking Benteen would arrive after and they'd be okay. Because they always ran, you see.

I don't think it would be rage that prompted a disciplinary shot, but cold hard calculus that this could not be tolerated, that it WAS a groundhog case, and they had to shape up and work together or they were cooked. I've never been in that situation, but it happened in every war and in every army and I doubt it would be tolerated that day by Benteen.

Again, zero proof, but bullets flying and missing men standing up and charging, yet able to hit between the eyes after they returned. Maybe. Unlikely. I don't inquire of combat vets, but I've been told by one this happened and nothing was ever said because they had to do it and it was understood. Panic spreads.

[alfakilo]

May 18, 2013 18:45:15 GMT -6 benteen said:

Ian/Alphakilo,

I am going to let you in on a secret. I am being a little subversive to our forum family, I dont like to do it, but desperate times call for desperat measures. My hope is, that one of our family says 'No problem Dan I have the Bonifede map, Ill photo stat it give me a PM with your address and Ill send it to you" Then I will send it to both of you or any one else that wants it. But remember you are both gentlemen and you are on your honor not to tell any one OK

Be Well
Dan

Stranger things have happened.

AK

[quincannon]

I am going to leave my copy to the three of you in my will, Scotch Magic Tape holding it together and all and let the three of you fight over it.

Dan I suppose you do not realize it but the Bonafede Map when opened covers my whole desk, and it is printed (actually most of it is overhead photography) on both sides. I doubt if you could read a photo copy, and the color overlays would probably not come out at all.

I don't like the McElfresh Map as well, but it is better than anything else out there presently available.They do a much better job with their Civil War battlefield maps, and surprisingly their Pearl Harbor is the best of the bunch.

Ian Bench Mark 3411 is shown only on the USGS Topographic 1:24,000 scale map Otherwise it is worthless having been last updated in 1967.

Those of you that have Where Custer Fell, the map on page 55 shows BM 3411 right on the border line of the Reno Benteen Battle Site. It's blurred and almost looks like 7411 but that's it.

DC: Fast and loose: That is me agreeing with you not disagreeing. I don't think the bastard could sit still in a barber's chair much less a battlefield.

[wild]

Hi Ian
The time difference favours the late shift.

A small detail-- you ask the question-----what do you think he could achieve with 120
Benteen states in his evidence to the RCOI that he could have reached Weir Point.
He also states that he did not know the whereabouts of Custer.
The issue is Should he have advanced as far as possible?
In halting his command prematurely he was not in a position to assess the situation accurately.
Have a nice Sunday

PS
I'm reluctant to use a film to make a point but Al Pacino's inspirational speech to the American footballers is an exception and particularly as he urges his team to fight for every inch.The scene is militaristic in tone ,Shackspearian almost.
Benteen was just not prepared to go that extra inch.

[mac]

Wild
Benteen only halts prematurely if he knows where Custer is, but he doesn't. He asks "where is Custer?" and not surprisingly Reno doesn't know.
To go on Benteen has to follow the trail towards the zillions of Indians he has just found to have routed Reno. I don't think that is a reasonable decision under the circumstances. Given the sketchy nature of his orders.

[Yan Taylor]

Chuck/Fred, that’s the map that Richard sent over, he got a bunch of stuff off Chris and when he heard of my quest for a good map he posted it to me, funny enough it has all the other heights on the area besides 3411, almost at the place I think 3411 is there is a 3400, but it does show the place were Custer was last spotted.

Dan/AK the map itself is beautifully drawn and will look great in anyone’s study and wall mounted in a nice glass frame.

Richard, Sunday has gone well so far, Susan has cracked the whip and I have creosoted the garden shed chopped down a tree.

I mentioned about the place resembling a death trap and I think Mac agrees, even if Benteen said right I am taking my Battalion out and finding the rest of the Regiment, Reno could have ordered him to stay, after all a Major does out rank a Captain and if Benteen pays no heed to Reno’s orders then he would be doing what you have been saying now for ages ‘’he has disobeyed a direct order from a superior’’.

Ian.

[Deleted]

Fred,
How close is my "X" to 3411?
Best,
c.

[wild]

Hi mac
To go on Benteen has to follow the trail towards the zillions of Indians he has just found to have routed Reno.
Yes agreed.To advance was risky.

Benteen only halts prematurely if he knows where Custer is, but he doesn't.
I would think that halting before he finds Custer is premature.What do you think?
You must also consider the man's actions from the point where he entered the sand table [Kanipe]to his retreat to Reno Hill.He just went missing for over 2 hours.
Best Wishes

[wild]

Hi Ian
Fantastic day here;hope you are enjoying similar weather across the water.
Glad to see you are making good use of the maps.

even if Benteen said right I am taking my Battalion out and finding the rest of the Regiment, Reno could have ordered him to stay, after all a Major does out rank a Captain
Benteen reported his command to Reno thus he removed himself from decision making and responsibility

Again
after all a Major does out rank a Captain and if Benteen pays no heed to Reno’s orders then he would be doing what you have been saying now for ages ‘’he has disobeyed a direct order from a superior’’
Benteen abandoned his post when he took off Northwards without reference to Reno.
Now I think you lean towards the interpretation of our board military?I trust I'm not doing you an injustice there.
Well let us use the post of Montrose to illustrate the consequences of Benteen's actions.
When the train reached Reno Hill, the rump regiment moved north. In fact, most of it had moved north before the trains closed, exposing the unit to defeat in detail.
Who was responsible for the trains?
Benteen aided and abetted the shambles to Weir Point exposing as Montrose points out the command to defeat in detail.
There is not a single positive act from that man from the time kanipe reaches him until he returns from Weir Point.
In this debate we are without Fred.Fred has gone to ground on this issue.
For ford D to be creditable he must have Benteen marching to Custer bypassing Reno[he has posted thus].
Custer cannot execute his plan without knowing that Benteen is on his way.Fred's silence on this matter speaks volumns.
Best Wishes

[Deleted]

Thanks Fred, much appreciated. I'll delete this image and fix it.
c.

[fred]

Hey, Chris!!! I just double-checked. Don't change it; you are right on the money. I was looking at it from the wrong angle. Don't move the "X." Sorry.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Deleted]

OK! It stays as is.
Best,
c.

[Deleted]

Original image.
c.

Attachments:

[Yan Taylor]

Well I am looking at the McElfresh map as I write and that position you have their Chris would be nearer to the Dr DeWolf Marker than the spot that says ‘’last sight of Custer’s Command’’, and is the high ground directly behind it ‘’Sharpshooter Ridge’’?

Ian.