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Post by quincannon on May 18, 2013 14:29:12 GMT -6
JAG: I do. My reference in this instance was for a specific, very specific employment of Benteen, as to time, place and method. I believe that at the time the note was written that this was still a work in progress. Nothing at all wrong with that. You bring someone up where they are handy, and you can employ them as the situation develops. Done all the time. The key word(s) then was not plan, rather "that amount of detail"
Custer was by nature impatient. I can't see him sitting at any one place awaiting the arrival of anyone. I believe he would use any and all time available to him in what he thought to be productive.
I don't know where Custer was when Benteen reaches Reno. My guess is he was screwing around down at Ford B, with Keogh back up on L-N-C. But his location is not the point. Him not waiting is the point, and it was meant to further support my contention that he had no specific plan (the when-where-how) to employ Benteen. Not yet. I think he did make such a decision and that decision was overcome by events.
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Post by Dark Cloud on May 18, 2013 14:41:21 GMT -6
People tried in the past to blame Reno and Benteen for abandoning Custer and others on purpose when they could, in theory, have saved him. Variations of that abound. That never made sense to me, because their careers would have ended and - not unlikely - their lives during the night of the 25th by 'stray' bullet. The other officers would not have tolerated that. For that matter, I wouldn't doubt that Benteen shot the guy who cowered and didn't go over in their charge. Nobody hit in that movement, but a crack shot Indian got the 'coward' between the eyes? I do not buy that. Suspect he was killed and NObody objected. No proof, but that strikes me as likely.
I also do not think Custer would order in Reno and then consider leaving him for an indefinite period and......wait for Benteen. And select a place where Benteen could not see him and who might have headed for the firing, assuming Custer was engaged on the plain having crossed further down river, as was his intent and a logical assumption on Benteen's part.
Custer's career would not have survived the fight if he'd left Reno engaged and neither joined, nor crossed, but divided his immediate command and waited. He'd know it.
Dismounted and waiting while a fight was going on? Custer? I just do not see that.
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Post by fred on May 18, 2013 15:02:09 GMT -6
I agree-- in essence-- with everything DC just posted. Nothing I have posted would conflict with what he wrote. Another nice job.
Best wishes,
Fred.
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Post by quincannon on May 18, 2013 15:05:28 GMT -6
DC: Any examination of any battle must include a personality profile of a commander or both commanders. Montgomery kept a picture of Rommel in his field office. Intelligence officers make careers out of studying personalities. Know your enemy as you know yourself is what Sun Tzu tells us.
In situations like these where there are so many unknowns the personality traits of a commander can help us fill in the blank spaces, not with fact, but educated speculation about what he would most likely do, based upon past performance, known habits, and his particular risk comfort level. Many other things as well, but those three are sufficient for this present discussion. In short if Custer was known in the past to be fast and loose, chances are he would be this time as well.
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Post by benteen on May 18, 2013 15:27:32 GMT -6
And as Fred will back me up, timing would be everything here. I do indeed! When Benteen reached the LBH and peered down the valley, Custer was sitting on Luce Ridge, about to head toward Ford B. When Benteen reached Reno on the hilltop, Custer had arrived at Ford B. By the way, Jag, nice job with all of this. You have generated interest, a bit of controversy, and a very nice discussion. A lot of people have chimed in, contributed, added to the understanding. Keep it under control. Best wishes, Fred. Capt Fred, I dont debate you I learn from you. I was about to give my opinion to Jags question when I saw your post. One thing confuses me about it, could you clear this up for me. Shortly after Benteen arrives on Reno Hill , there are 2 volleys heard. To my knowledge no volleys were fired from MTC. Why would there be, who would they be shooting at, they were under no threat. The Indians didnt even know Custer was there until the troops went to Ford B. So how do we explain the volley fire being heard when Benteen arrives Be Well Dan |
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Post by benteen on May 18, 2013 15:34:21 GMT -6
, I wouldn't doubt that Benteen shot the guy who cowered and didn't go over in their charge. Nobody hit in that movement, but a crack shot Indian got the 'coward' between the eyes? I do not buy that. Suspect he was killed and NObody objected. No proof, but that strikes me as likely. . Dark Cloud, Like Capt Fred I agree with most of your post. But I disagree with this part of it. There was no rage. As you said noone was killed. These men were elated that they had accomplished a dangerous mission and lost no one. I dont believe Benteen or any other soldier would have shot this man. Ignored him, yes, dispise him, probably that too, but kill him, no, there was no rage. Just a thought Be Well Dan |
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Post by wild on May 18, 2013 16:22:15 GMT -6
I agree-- in essence-- with everything DC just posted. Nothing I have posted would conflict with what he wrote. Another nice job
This is what you posted
Custer believing Benteen would enter the battle, regardless of Reno’s situation (and Custer understood Reno was in some trouble, not knowing or believing its extent).
Because he saw Indians running and because the ford opposition was light, Custer opted to move farther north, all the while “knowing” Benteen was on his way
The conflict is in that DC describes the order as an exhortation.
You have Custer knowing that Benteen is on his way.
An exhortation low priority message is not of sufficient seriousness as to have Custer knowing that Benteen was on his way regardless of Reno's situation.
Another conflict
DC
I also do not think Custer would order in Reno and then consider leaving him for an indefinite period and......wait for Benteen.
Fred
Reno had turned into a pleasant decoy
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Post by wild on May 18, 2013 16:41:36 GMT -6
In situations like these where there are so many unknowns the personality traits of a commander can help us fill in the blank spacesWhatever all this means>But if applied to Custer's orders then it did not mean pussyfooting,deep thinking.navel gazing.
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Post by wild on May 18, 2013 16:48:08 GMT -6
People tried in the past to blame Reno and Benteen for abandoning Custer and others on purpose when they could, in theory, have saved him.
Yes and if that was so they were barking up the wrong tree.The issue is not saving Custer, it is progressing a direct order as per CO's intent.
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Post by fred on May 18, 2013 16:54:00 GMT -6
Shortly after Benteen arrives on Reno Hill , there are 2 volleys heard. To my knowledge no volleys were fired from MTC. Why would there be, who would they be shooting at, they were under no threat. The Indians didnt even know Custer was there until the troops went to Ford B. So how do we explain the volley fire being heard when Benteen arrives Dan, In my opinion, you are correct: no volleys were fired from MTC. They were fired, initially, from Luce Ridge, then from Nye-Cartwright, a few minutes later, and the latter, probably not "volleys," per se, but "firing at will." Initially I believe the first volleys were fired at a "bunch" of warriors coming down (probably) West Coulee, but maybe even Middle Coulee, especially since there were three Crows in the vicinity of the so-called "Boyer's Bluff." These were probably more warning shots than any serious threat because those Indians would have been able, if allowed, to come up Smith's rear. In addition, I believe some of the firing was directed at Wolf Tooth and Big Foot and those Indians coming down the southern fork of MTC, also in Smith's rear. Those warriors presented a real problem, and their splitting in two (as we are told they did) presented more troubles because they began coming up the ridges behind Keogh. Once Keogh moved to Nye-Cartwright, the firing was cover firing to protect Smith's rear as he pulled out behind Custer and Yates. The timing for all of this works almost shockingly well and when I put it all together, it surprised me... one of three or four such surprises I had when I did the whole time-line thing. Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 18, 2013 17:18:15 GMT -6
Hi Fred I am doing the late shift tonight, its 12-15 AM here.
When I was writing my last post I eluded to the fact that this note may have been composed at a stage were Custer didn’t feel that threatened, and when Chuck, DC and Dan said about a low priority message it was just the point I was trying to make, now if Martini was given a note written about 30 minutes later (when Custer had a better understanding of the situation) the note would be more immediate and to the point.
I reckon any experienced Commander would assess any situation before acting, Benteen did just that, now if he had seen hundreds of Indians up ahead and seen how they beat up Reno’s 140 men, what do you think he could achieve with 120, yes he could have put together a battle group consisting of his own Battalion and an ad hock group of shattered survivors from Reno’s Battalion, he could even took B Company if he had waited long enough.
But the only safe way was to assess what they faced before moving out, and when most of the warriors moved away (to get Custer) was when they should have moved, Weir made his own futile attempt consisting of just him and his striker and later followed by the rest of his Company and Benteen followed, but on the whole this was a disorganised unit, I bet the men who arrived after Reno had been routed were in just as much shock as Reno’s men, don’t forget that they expected the Indians to run, and what did they do ‘’stand and fight in large numbers’’.
Ian.
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Post by benteen on May 18, 2013 17:18:18 GMT -6
Capt Fred,
Thank you for the in depth answer. Not as an excuse, well yes it is an excuse, but I know where I think people were, but I dont have a good map,that shows everything, as a result Im putting people in the wrong places. Both Alphakilo and I tried to get the Bonifide map, but struck out. Can you recomend another one so that my opinions and placements dont look foolish.
Be Well
Dan
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 18, 2013 17:25:37 GMT -6
Hi Dan, I got no reply from the address I E-Mailed concerning the Bonifide map, I have a pamphlet by the same author, it’s a water colour map with all the various landmarks and stuff, but no hill 3411, but thanks to Fred and Chuck I have a good idea where it is located.
Ian.
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Post by alfakilo on May 18, 2013 18:13:34 GMT -6
I tried e-mailing Bonafede directly at his office...no response.
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Post by benteen on May 18, 2013 18:45:15 GMT -6
Ian/Alphakilo, I am going to let you in on a secret. I am being a little subversive to our forum family, I dont like to do it, but desperate times call for desperat measures. My hope is, that one of our family says 'No problem Dan I have the Bonifede map, Ill photo stat it give me a PM with your address and Ill send it to you" Then I will send it to both of you or any one else that wants it. But remember you are both gentlemen and you are on your honor not to tell any one OK  Be Well Dan |
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