Benteens orders

[montrose]

Dan wrote, "But there are theories that whatever plan Custer had he was counting on Benteens arrival at a certain time. There is no way Custer could count on the arrival of 100 mules in any set time."

That speaks volumes on these other theories. When the facts don't support your theory, change the facts.

The note is unclear on the emphasis between packs and speed. Cooke resolved this with his postscript "Bring Pacs".

To understand the intent of the message, don't focus solely on the note. Consider the messenger. LTC Custer had used officers and NCOs of his staff for earlier messages. For a low priority message he used the lowest quality messenger he had available. (Dandy may have been a better choice than Martini).

If LTC Custer wanted Benteen to drop what he was doing and rush into combat, he would have sent Cooke. The message would also include the enemy situation, friendly situation and where this intended fight was to take place.

That is not what happened.

Bring packs.

[fuchs]

May 18, 2013 5:06:34 GMT -6 montrose said:

Dan wrote, "But there are theories that whatever plan Custer had he was counting on Benteens arrival at a certain time. There is no way Custer could count on the arrival of 100 mules in any set time."

That speaks volumes on these other theories. When the facts don't support your theory, change the facts.

Thanks. That was also my impression, but I didn't want to stir things up again backed only by my flimsy understanding of the situation.

The note is unclear on the emphasis between packs and speed. Cooke resolved this with his postscript "Bring Pacs".

To understand the intent of the message, don't focus solely on the note. Consider the messenger. LTC Custer had used officers and NCOs of his staff for earlier messages. For a low priority message he used the lowest quality messenger he had available. (Dandy may have been a better choice than Martini).

If LTC Custer wanted Benteen to drop what he was doing and rush into combat, he would have sent Cooke. The message would also include the enemy situation, friendly situation and where this intended fight was to take place.

So, this would be in line with my speculations that the message meant that Custer did not think that Benteen could arrive in time to contribute meaningful to the action that was underway, under any circumstances?

But rather, that is was a message that either implied some low priority mission (make sure the train is secured against potential Indian harassment), or a mission that wasn't timing critical (make sure the gains of the anticipated initial victory could be consolidated by the whole command)?

[Yan Taylor]

To really understand that note we must first try and place the position of Custer’s Battalion, and second what he actually seen in regards to its meaning, when Cook had written that note and handed it Martini, what was the state of affairs, did Custer know he was in for a big fight? and he needed re-enforcements or did he simply think that the village ahead was huge but still assailable and add to that Reno was doing ok in the valley, if this is true then maybe Custer thought he had time for Benteen and the packs to be brought forward into the Frey, and once the Warriors got wind of Custer’s Battalion plus a another group of Cavalry (Benteen) threatening the village from another point that they may break and run.
Ian.

[quincannon]

When you are forced to interpret a message, and every poster here has his own interpretation, his own version of meaning, then it is a badly formulated communication, from which nothing can be gleaned, except that Custer wanted Benteen somewhere that he presently was not, along with the packs.

Anything else is pure speculation. Everything else is pure speculation. You may think, conjure, extrapolate, prognosticate, read tea leaves, peer into a crystal ball, consult you favorite soothsayer, and call upon the witches in Birnam Wood, all to no avail. It is a futile, never ending exercise, designed to frustrate, confuse and lead one down a false trail.

Before anyone with the benefit of more than 130 years of hindsight disputes what I have just said, including Fred, divorce yourself of that hindsight and place yourself in Benteen's boots, and act upon its contents. Upon receipt, what would you do, based upon the note alone?

[wild]

Hi Mac
I lean to the view that Benteen satisfied these requirements and was perhaps the levelest head present on the occassion.
The mission was to attack the Indians and defeat them.
The mission was not saving Reno.
Every battlefield will have defeated units.What you see as being level headed could be seen as defeatist.What Benteen did is the oldest dodge in the book;taking a wounded man to the rear.
Soldiers are expendable,they are not for saving at the expense of the mission.Cavalry have ridden over their own men to get at the enemy.Artillery have fired on melees.Soldiers have even called fire down on their own positions in desperate situations.
Benteen knew nothing of Custer's situation when he threw in the towel for that is exactly what it was.

As regards the packs.Benteen did not give a tinkers fart for the packs.
He knew that they were operating under orders from Custer.Those orders were updated by Martin but he did not communicate this to the packs.
Nor did the order oblige him to travel in concert with the packs.The best tactical option was for him to pass the order back and make the best speed possible with his battalion.
The order was simple and direct;commanders intent clear.The Da Vinci code requiring a doctorate in hieroglyphics it was not.It was a soldiers summons to an non engaged unit to report to the force commander.
Regards

[wild]

Before anyone with the benefit of more than 130 years of hindsight disputes what I have just said, including Fred, divorce yourself of that hindsight and place yourself in Benteen's boots, and act upon its contents. Upon receipt, what would you do, based upon the note alone?
The minimum he is obliged to do is report his action to Custer.Otherwise the command and control system becomes dysfunctional.
Reno sent two riders to Custer to report his progress.

As for the bold Fred he is dodging the column on this one.

[mac]

Wild
True the mission was to attack the indians but his orders were to come on with the packs presumably to Custer. When he gets to Reno Custer is not there! He knows that there are zillions of indians there. If you were his commander would you really expect him to ride with the packs on into zillions of indians looking for Custer?
quincannon
Take your point about the message but he is to come on (presumably follow the trail) and bring the packs and near as I can see he tried to follow what was a terrible message.
Hope all is well with you!
Cheers

[wild]

mac
Was Custer not only a mile distant in Cedar Coulee awaiting his reinforcements for an attack across MTCF?

[quincannon]

Mac: Follow which trail? There were two. One leading to where Reno was in the valley. One that follows Custer onto the bluffs. The sound and fury of the battle was then in the valley (the last stages anyway). Benteen did not know that Custer had not joined this fight, despite the presence of Martini, despite the trail onto the bluffs. The only positive information he had at this point was seeing the last of Reno crossing over the river in retreat, and the chance sighting of indian scouts motioning him toward the bluffs.

Getting better.

[Dark Cloud]

All the message does is tell Benteen they've found a big village and to bring the train north towards it with an exhortation. There is no time, no location specified beyond those vague indicators.

He'd want the train for the men, yes, and ammo, but also because of the food, spare mounts, medical supplies. It may not reflect any need of Custer's but a wish that the enemy, at least, not get those things. It indicates no fear. It also reflects confidence in Benteen to do what was needed, which was rewarded.

[wild]

. It may not reflect any need of Custer's but a wish that the enemy, at least, not get those things. It indicates no fear. It also reflects confidence in Benteen to do what was needed, which was rewarded.
Fear?confidence?wishes?.God help us a civilian in the communication centre.

[quincannon]

DC and Montrose are absolutely correct. It was a low priority message, that sought to bring Benteen closer. Custer was not the sharpest tool in the shed, but he had enough sense to include, or have included into the message, any proposed employment for Benteen, and he did not. Anyone reading more into it than that, has no way to justify their assumptions.

The most probable reason that the note did not include a proposed employment of Benteen is that when it was written Custer had yet to decide where, when, or if Benteen would be employed. Does anyone think Custer had formulated a plan in that amount of detail when the note was sent? I don't, and I believe his subsequent movements back up that opinion.

In addition does anyone really think Custer being Custer was waiting in Cedar Coulee, or Medicine Tail Coulee, or L-N-C Ridge when Benteen arrived at Reno's location? Does anyone think Custer being Custer was waiting on anything or anyone at that point?

[wild]

In addition does anyone really think Custer being Custer was waiting in Cedar Coulee, or Medicine Tail Coulee, or L-N-C Ridge when Benteen arrived at Reno's location? Does anyone think Custer being Custer was waiting on anything or anyone at that point?
Orders are the same for everybody and not a matter of interpretation based on the character/personality of the commander.

It was a low priority message
There is no such thing as a low priority order.
Did the 7th have an order grading system?

[jag]

May 18, 2013 10:13:03 GMT -6 quincannon said:

Does anyone think Custer had formulated a plan in that amount of detail when the note was sent?

Well its my hope that since I valued your opinion (still do, that hasn't changed one bit), that you'd value mine in like regard.

A formulation of a plan either on the fly or in the morning hours when he had an officers call, after coming down from the mountain (god that sounds so Moses familiar... No wonder he's considered a Saint), could be either simple in the first instance, or more detailed at the officers call in the 2nd, when he would have more time to discuss that. Do I believe he did? At the very least he would have designated a contingency plan to regroup somewhere safe if anything or everything, as occurred at the LBH, went south. Usually, although not always, the high ground was just such a place.

Don't give me grief on what Custer did or didn't know. He knew of the divide long before he ever arrived there, that, just for starters.

May 18, 2013 10:13:03 GMT -6 quincannon said:

In addition does anyone really think Custer being Custer was waiting in Cedar Coulee, or Medicine Tail Coulee, or L-N-C Ridge when Benteen arrived at Reno's location? Does anyone think Custer being Custer was waiting on anything or anyone at that point?

That's the problem. And as Fred will back me up, timing would be everything here. Was he at 'Cedar Coulee' or MTC or "L-N-C ridge" or even Cemetery Ridge when Benteen arrived at the bluffs and observed Reno and his men in full retreat. "That point" you reference need be known with a certainty in order to intelligently discuss this. Postulate one, we'll discuss that one, then postulate another and we'll discuss that one etc. in an attempt to find out. Not that we will, but at least its an honest attempt. Something I tried to do and no one took me seriously.

[fred]

May 18, 2013 14:01:33 GMT -6 jag said:

And as Fred will back me up, timing would be everything here.

I do indeed!

Was he at 'Cedar Coulee' or MTC or "L-N-C ridge" or even Cemetery Ridge when Benteen arrived at the bluffs and observed Reno and his men in full retreat.

When Benteen reached the LBH and peered down the valley, Custer was sitting on Luce Ridge, about to head toward Ford B.

When Benteen reached Reno on the hilltop, Custer had arrived at Ford B.

By the way, Jag, nice job with all of this. You have generated interest, a bit of controversy, and a very nice discussion. A lot of people have chimed in, contributed, added to the understanding. Keep it under control.

Best wishes,
Fred.