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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 20, 2023 23:29:05 GMT -6
We do see that there are several blue printed survey maps with various notes - in red and/or pencil, “interview with…”, locations, etc. and dates like “…1909” hand-written on them. Also corresponding letter or 2 (Rooney). Sure seems theyre original work.
Black and blue prints of Maguire and various other period maps too.
Anyway - Now that the bluffs and the coulee and Weir advance/retreat are nailed down…time for me to start looking at MTC and beyond.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 21, 2023 5:30:32 GMT -6
Hmmm.......... Pvt. John Fox (Company D) comments on the battle to Walter Camp, Liddic & Harbaugh - Custer & Company.He says he heard a conversation between Weir and Reno before D Company went out. He says Weir remarked, "Custer must be around here somewhere and we ought to go to him." Reno said, "We are surrounded by Indians and we ought to remain here." Weir said, "Well, if no one else goes to Custer, I will go." Reno replied, "No, you can not go. For if you try to do it, you will get killed and your company with you." Fox says Reno appeared to be intoxicated or partially so. He says that Moylan and Benteen stood by and heard what Weir said and they did not seem to approve of Weir going and talked as though to discourage him. Finally, Weir said that he was going anyhow and Reno did not object. He says Weir went as far toward Custer as any of D Company and when he saw the large number of Indians, ordered the Company to fall back. He says Charley was hit while D Company was falling back and called out that he was hit and implored them not to go off and leave him. On 6/28 he helped bury the dead on Custer Ridge. The officers were found mainly on the plane and the enlisted men of all 5 companies were mixed up all over the battlefield. He identified enlisted men of 5 companies and saw this fact of his own knowledge. Says he identified the men of 3 of the companies lying right around Keogh. In burying the dead, the squad he was in had only one shovel. They dug up the ground with knives and chopped it with an axe. They threw dirt and sage brush on the bodies. They covered only the faces of some of the bodies. Edgerly called "Big Feet," says Fox and others.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 21, 2023 5:41:15 GMT -6
Pvt. Jacob Hetler's (Company D.) Nov. 30, 1935, Winners of the West.On the morning of June 22, 1876 we started a hurried march toward the Little Big Horn. We had nothing but a pack train and our most valuable bit of equipment was four demijohns of whiskey, which was taken along for officer's only -- although I did get a little of it while I was in a hospital tent. On the evening of that day we made camp on the banks of the Yellowstone, and the following morning we began a forced march with a pack and one piece of field artillery, a small cannon, known as Rodman gun. We carried this until we came to a chain of bluffs where we had to take it apart and carry it through in pieces. General Custer thought this took too much valuable time and it was his order which left the cannon behind; an order many believe may have cost him his life, for if we had taken the cannon with us, we might have held the Indians at bay and saved Custer the last march which led to his death. On this march we slept in our saddles and ate one meal. We arrived at the Little Big Horn on June 25, 1876, at 11:00 A.M. When we arrived Major Reno had already had an engagement with the Indians and had been repulsed on the bluffs, and just in time to save six men who had been cut off from their detachment during the melee. We gave the tired, thirsty soldiers water from our canteens -- the first they had had in hours (signal men) stationed on a bluff, and next I saw Custer and a group of men going out of sight over the hills. I might mention here that about this time I saw soldier carrying an Indian scalp -- the only time I had ever saw a white man with a scalp he had taken. For an hour and a half after that Capt. Weir of my company asked Major Reno for permission to go after Custer and this was granted. We had heard firing and knew there was trouble and hoped to arrive in time to aid Custer, but as the world knows now, we were too late. We were badly outnumbered when we finally came in sight of the scene of the massacre, and were fortunate to find a way to retreat back to the main company. Only one man was lost on that march. ... On June 28 there was a quiet but dramatic interlude, when we buried Gen. Custer and pile brush over his slain soldiers, weighing it down with dirt. ... When our company marched back to Fort Rice, I received an honorable discharge.
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 21, 2023 5:41:17 GMT -6
Yep. Just as Wiley and Edgerly describe, as presented earlier...
They dismounted behind Edgerly peak/crescent, and stayed there when Weir saw indians on the battleground, and decided against advancing any farther.
George W. Wylie Junction City October 16, 1910 Soon after Benteen joined Reno on hill, Capt. Weir started to open up communication with Custer, and the troop marched out along bluff until came to a jumping-off place from which could look down upon the hollow of Medicine Tail coulee. Men dismounted and put horses behind Edgerly peaks and behind hill to east, and men formed line over this hill from east to west. Seeing many horsemen over on distant ridge with guidons flying, Weir said, "That is Custer over there," and mounted up ready to go over, when Sergt. Flanagan said: "Here, Captain, you had better take a look through the glasses; I think those are Indians." Weir did so and changed his mind about leaving the place. Accordingly the men were dismounted and the horses led behind the hill.
Edgerly ...We moved along on that bluff for a short distance, when the Indians commenced to fire on us. The troops were all dismounted, formed on the top of the ridge and returned the fire
More Wylie “Vincent Charlie was shot and fell off his horse..at the same time Edgerly was stooping over Charley and told him to lie quiet and he’d come back to recue him. Here Edgerly had difficulty in mounting his horse”
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Post by herosrest on Nov 21, 2023 5:44:29 GMT -6
Many People, a minor chief of the Venturer tribe which has wandered the Earth endlessly is eternal quest, has stated that many researchers have studied and published Walter M. Camp's work and not all is what it was or seems now to be. It's a very interesting list of people you wish to join. It is the reason why no-one has a clue what went on. I'm still trying for access to Brininstool's stuff.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 21, 2023 5:47:59 GMT -6
Yep. Just as Wiley and Edgerly describe, as presented earlier... They dismounted behind Edgerly peak/crescent when Weir saw indians on the battleground, and decided against advancing any farther. George W. Wylie Junction City October 16, 1910 Men dismounted and put horses behind Edgerly peaks and behind hill to east and men formed line over this hill from east to west ... ...Weir did so and changed his mind about leaving the place. Accordingly the men were dismounted and the horses led behind the hill.Edgerly We moved along on that bluff for a short distance, when the Indians commenced to fire on us. The troops were all dismounted, formed on the top of the ridge and returned the fireYou need to get a hang of the tactics. They retreated the led horses to cover whilst the platoons engaged the hostiles. Fighting line deploys and horses fall back. An excellent example of this had only recently occured below, in the valley. I have a picture somewhere, of the Pile of rocks (pillar)... I must find it. It's at the apex of the highest hill. They are still there today.
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 21, 2023 5:49:30 GMT -6
Not imperative, though tactics are good. I wasn't there...they were.
You need to stop changing primary statements & testimony to fit your opinions.
Weir saw them through field glasses.
Men dismounted and put horses behind Edgerly peaks and behind hill to east... "That is Custer over there," and mounted up ready to go over... "Here, Captain, you had better take a look through the glasses; I think those are Indians." Weir did so and changed his mind about leaving the place. Accordingly the men were dismounted and the horses led behind the hill.
Its like 15000ft to the battleground from Edgerly peaks - not immediately 'hide behind rocks' "engagement" distances...but any cover would be welcome.
Dismounted again, returned fire, and then retreated as the Indians moved on them, per Hare and Reno/orders, etc.
Edgerly After we had gone a short distance down the valley,...Col. Weir, who had remained to our left, on the bluff, saw a large number of Indians coming toward us, and motioned with his hand for me to swing around with the troop to where he was, which I did. When I got up on the bluff I saw Col. Benteen, Captain French and Lieutenant Godfrey coming toward us with their troops. We moved along on that bluff for a short distance, when the Indians commenced to fire on us. The troops were all dismounted, formed on the top of the ridge and returned the fire."
This firing was kept up about half an hour, when the troops were drawn back to their original position by order of Gen. Reno. Our troops had one man killed in coming back and one horse only, although two or three Indians ran up on the hill immediately after we left and emptied their Winchesters on us.
'Pillar of rocks' would be cool...there are several mentioned - Varnum, Thompson, in pictures with Camp and Godfrey etc.
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 21, 2023 6:22:59 GMT -6
Many People, a minor chief of the Venturer tribe which has wandered the Earth endlessly is eternal quest, has stated that many researchers have studied and published Walter M. Camp's work and not all is what it was or seems now to be. It's a very interesting list of people you wish to join. It is the reason why no-one has a clue what went on. I'm still trying for access to Brininstool's stuff. Why are you so hung up on Camp? There are other primary sources out there. Though Camp is definitely a big contributer. It is NOT hard at all to know what went on. This really isnt that complicated! (At least before MTC when there are tons of witnesses) Some people just choose not to believe the statements, maps and even pictures. Like 90%+ of those statements are specific, and in agreement. I think you getting hung up is hurting your knowledge. Forget the errant theories that persist for some unknown reason. Get passed YOUR notion of what SHOULD have happened. Don't spend hours and hours and hours trying to disprove the given evidence (and which usually only serves to enhance/confirm it). Go with the facts...corroboration...confirmation.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 21, 2023 13:43:24 GMT -6
There are difficulties with pretty much all this battle's evidence because desires for different outcomes which means that rationale is shot up which ever way it falls relative to biary quaternion rotations inflicted in opposition. GE is becoming fun again with ite latest incarnation so I re-imaged. I'm going at Edgerley's advance past Weir and the turn to the right, which was where any belief in where Wagner's ideas were - left me. This short video link has a column of cavalry passing in background. Here is a slightly longer and closer look at the ladies out for a ride with some thirty pairs clip clopping along. So that was what Edgerley was manouvering around and you can think of it like a train on the rails. He turned right and suddenly all these light bulbs go on........... sheeeshie poohs. It's simply terrain related. Turned right to circle back across his track because of the terrain. Right, supper time.
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 21, 2023 13:48:06 GMT -6
His advance passed CAPTAIN Weir I hope you mean; and NOT what became known as 'Weir Point' - as it seems no one there said he/D did this.
Especially not Edgerly himself.
A reminder or 2...
Edgerly, RCOI 1879 A. We moved out along the ridge, the highest point, that point “7,” {DeRudio/Martin=Custer/"G"/Weir's Hill} and then we moved down the valley in the general direction of the point “8.” {Martin/head of South Coulee} We moved from Major Reno’s position about a mile and a half, and then swung around on those swells and came up again and met the other companies coming up. We moved out and went to a point which I now mark “9.”
Edgerly Peaks - where they dismounted, and stayed for a bit. As we already know.
Edgerly Ft Yates 1881 I supposed that he had received permission to go out with the troop (though he afterwards told me he had not, and had not even asked for it), so I mounted the troop and followed {Weir}. After going a few hundred yards I swung off to the right with the troop and went into a little valley which must have been the one followed by Custer and his men, or nearly parallel to it...After we had gone a short distance down the valley, Col. Weir, who had remained to our left, on the bluff, saw a large number of Indians coming toward us, and motioned with his hand for me to swing around with the troop to where he was, which I did. When I got up on the bluff I saw Col. Benteen, Captain French and Lieutenant Godfrey coming toward us with their troops. We moved along on that bluff for a short distance, when the Indians commenced to fire on us. The troops were all dismounted, formed on the top of the ridge and returned the fire.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 22, 2023 5:57:15 GMT -6
Here is the issue you present. Edgerley did not follow Custer's trail. Therefore Custer did not use Cedar Coulee to reach Medicine Tail Ck. TYVM.
Further. The entire force sat upon the bluffs 'below' Reno Hill, where they ascended the bluffs - knew point blank beyond any doubt that Custer was headed into Little Bighorn valley to capture the village. They knew nothing else and had absolutely no reason to think anything otherwise and this was implicit to everything said by Reno up to and including his testimony that he expected the regiment to rally on him, on his hill. The companies with Custer did not use Cedar Coulee as I have explained and which you have spent considerable effort proving.
Therefore, the only interest of those with interest in Custer's whereabouts was how he was doing - down at the river. You cannot see the river or any related terrain from Cedar Coulee along its entire length. You can see terrain northwest along the Luce Blummer Calhoun axis passing along to Custer Hill. The northern flank of Battle ridge is in defilade and out of view the further down Cedar Coulee that travel is made towards MTC.
The interest was in the river area and crossing places, with that spurred on by observation that Custer had crossed into the valley. So Weir goes north to look south. Same for Custer's column - it went north to find a river crossing to the south.
Putting it blandly, this is the thinking of idiots with berserk agendas. I cannot see you in such vein so pull your socks up and realise that virtually everyone relating events to the Maguire map used at Chicago, stated that they did not understand it. I could go into why that was but it's irrelevant. The map was no use to them and they were sticking pins in it blindfolded. You have arrived at a bunch of wool dipped in cow pat. Start again. Thank you.
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 22, 2023 6:13:07 GMT -6
Once more - do you have anything - any primary evidence to actually back up your opinions? Edgerly went where he said he did. Several times he is very clear and very specific. Thought it 'may have been Custer's trail or parallel to it'. Makes sense, as others said that is what Custer did too. I spent time "proving"...exactly! While you have spent LOTS of time explaining something/anything different but with NO back up - none. Your attempts often provide just the opposite...more evidence to support the facts and statements the witnesses have provided. And? Even Curley refers to this...that Custer messed up. We know. Custer's column went where everyone THAT WAS THERE said it did. See the dozen or so witnesses. Start with martin. I trust them over unsupported notions. Scouts too. Sure is. Why such mistakes are still such a part of this battle and other's agendas is a mystery. Had/s to be the lack of access to the data. Otherwise just can’t explain why some will insist a half dozen witnesses who all explain the things happening at exactly the same place with exactly the same features must all be wrong. 🤪 Yet again - your over-thinking & your insistence in guessing why those who were there must be wrong, is getting you into trouble. YOU are making things confusing. Just trust the witnesses. Don't rely ONLY on the Maguire map. Trust the people AND their explanations. They are usually specific and surprisingly accurate and consistent as to distances and features - and what happened where. THAT is what they marked. And what they refer to. And corrborate. AND what is easily confirmed, by other evidence statements, maps, witnesses. etc. Believe them.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 22, 2023 6:16:35 GMT -6
If we look at the Cheyenne records of events and go to Two Moon, who is attributed several maps then his idea of the Custer approach was they came along the Warrior Trail (Route 212) from Busby and that has caused utter havoc since he started giving interviews. 7th Cavalry used the Reno Ck route and not the parallel northern trail WHICH MTC joins as it routes away from the river. Two Moons assumed that the troops travelled along the 212 route.
Why might he think that, since he actually saw NOTHING of the five companies approaching east of the river until he returned from the Reno action in the valley. Why would he place troops much farther east across the river than was actual? Well, the Cheyennes had a couple of scouts up on the bluffs east of the river on Greasy Grass Hill and Bouyer's Bluffs and they obviously saw something which led Two Moons to later believe what he did - rubbish. What could that have been? What could the Cheyenne sentinels have possibly seen? Well, the US Military has this truly odd behaviour of flanking advances and occupying dominating terrain to their rear and especially when trying to cross rivers. I defer to 1873, August 11th, and Lt. Bradon in the fight at Pease Bottom which hadn't then been called that, because Pease hadn't built his fort there.
There ya go, potted Cheyenne Way.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 22, 2023 7:12:58 GMT -6
linkCharles F. Roe.............. link - That name rings a bell........... ah.......... New York. National Guard. West Point............ Yeah...... Second Cavalry 1876. Recon of LBH valley in May 1876. The Bates Collection - Not Norman's. Where was it Mrs. Custer settled in later years.... - Bronxville
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Post by herosrest on Nov 22, 2023 7:40:31 GMT -6
It is at this point, where every self-respecting student of this battle should have arrived at the question. Did Custer's command ever go to Maguire's Ford B?
Here's looking at ya..................
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