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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 3, 2024 4:29:02 GMT -6
Except that John Martin had already seen Custer falling back from B when Martin saw Reno still ‘engaged in skirmish form.’
Which was it? You can "shoot and scoot" all you want - but it is what it was. Reno was engaged.
Which was it? Support, or not? FLank attack, or not?
We can see the questions remain: Why was Custer falling back and/or not pressing an attack on the flank (if he was supposed to) at that time? And follow up with: ...falling back in the direction/manner he did?
John Martin, re: sights from Martin's Ridge A. We kept on General Custer’s trail, and after we got on this ridge where I saw Major Reno fighting in the bottom. About this time we got there I saw Major Reno’s battalion retreating to the same side of the river we were on. ... Q. Where did you see Major Reno fighting? A. I was up on the ridge and he was in the bottom. Q. Was his line deployed in skirmish form? A. Yes, sir. ... Q. How long after Major Reno got on the hill did you come up, or did you get to the hill at the same time Major Reno did, or before or after? A. The men were retreating at the time we came there.
"I did not follow Dry Creek all way back to coulee running north and south but cut across the high ground. When I got up on the elevation I looked behind and saw Custer's command over on the flat and Indians over in the village riding toward the river and waving buffalo hides. The battalion appeared at this time to be falling back from the river."
"Boston asked me where Custer was and if he had been attacked and I said no. Soon after met Boston and met the two men. After this I heard a volley and looked back and saw Custer retreating back from the river."
Edgerly A. Shortly after I got on the hill, almost immediately I heard firing and remarked it, heavy firing by volleys down the creek. Captain Weir came to me and said General Custer was engaged and we ought to go down. He went away, walking up and down rather anxiously. I heard the fire plainly. ... Shortly after, Captain Weir came up again. I think he had been gone about ten minutes. By that time the firing had almost ceased.
Seems even while some of Reno command was still retreating - Custer command was in it heavy up on the hills.
Agreed. AFTER Custer had already fallen back from - whatever it was - at ford B.
Would Benteen "not arriving to fight in the valley" be based on his "scouting" orders, or Cooke "Come On" message?
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Post by mikegriffith1 on Aug 5, 2024 9:48:20 GMT -6
Except that John Martin had already seen Custer falling back from B when Martin saw Reno still ‘engaged in skirmish form.’ Which was it? You can "shoot and scoot" all you want - but it is what it was. Reno was engaged.
Which was it? Support, or not? FLank attack, or not? We can see the questions remain: Why was Custer falling back and/or not pressing an attack on the flank (if he was supposed to) at that time? And follow up with: ...falling back in the direction/manner he did? John Martin, re: sights from Martin's Ridge A. We kept on General Custer’s trail, and after we got on this ridge where I saw Major Reno fighting in the bottom. About this time we got there I saw Major Reno’s battalion retreating to the same side of the river we were on.
... Q. Where did you see Major Reno fighting? A. I was up on the ridge and he was in the bottom. Q. Was his line deployed in skirmish form? A. Yes, sir. ... Q. How long after Major Reno got on the hill did you come up, or did you get to the hill at the same time Major Reno did, or before or after? A. The men were retreating at the time we came there. "I did not follow Dry Creek all way back to coulee running north and south but cut across the high ground. When I got up on the elevation I looked behind and saw Custer's command over on the flat and Indians over in the village riding toward the river and waving buffalo hides. The battalion appeared at this time to be falling back from the river." "Boston asked me where Custer was and if he had been attacked and I said no. Soon after met Boston and met the two men. After this I heard a volley and looked back and saw Custer retreating back from the river."Edgerly A. Shortly after I got on the hill, almost immediately I heard firing and remarked it, heavy firing by volleys down the creek. Captain Weir came to me and said General Custer was engaged and we ought to go down. He went away, walking up and down rather anxiously. I heard the fire plainly....Shortly after, Captain Weir came up again. I think he had been gone about ten minutes. By that time the firing had almost ceased.Seems even while some of Reno command was still retreating - Custer command was in it heavy up on the hills. Agreed. AFTER Custer had already fallen back from - whatever it was - at ford B. Would Benteen " not arriving to fight in the valley" be based on his "scouting" orders, or Cooke "Come On" message? I'm sorry, but I find it hard to take this stuff seriously. You seem to repeatedly miss the forest for the trees, to use word-parsing strawman arguments, and to avoid the main points/bigger issues. Obviously, as you surely must understand, once Custer knew that Reno was not charging the village and was engaged dismounted in the valley, he could no longer do a two-pronged attack with two units driving the Indians, and thus the nature of his "support" had to change. Custer tried to attack from the flank (1) because he logically assumed that Reno would keep fighting in the valley and that Reno would thus continue to threaten the village and require the Indians to devote part of their force to deal with him, and (2) in order to prevent the Indians from being able to focus their forces on Reno. Custer will still trying to support Reno with a flank attack, but not under the circumstances he had originally envisioned. And, needless to say, Custer never dreamed that in a short while Reno would blunderingly leave the valley, get nearly 1/3 of his command killed, and take his unit 2 miles away from the village and out of the fight. As you surely must also understand, "support" can come in several forms and under varying circumstances. When your subordinate officer fails to obey your order to charge the village but prematurely ends his charge, sets up a skirmish line, and then abandons his men to go into the timber, leaving a lower-ranking officer to manage the skirmish line, he has made it impossible for you to "support" him in the way you originally planned. And when your subordinate officer then compounds his failures by fleeing from a strong defensive position that threatened the village, simultaneously taking his command out of the fight, the circumstances are now very different from the ones you envisioned when you gave him his orders.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 5, 2024 11:14:34 GMT -6
You dont have to apologize. The issues I am interested in were made quite clear, in the questions I asked. As did others. The big picture is rather plain in this case, the "bigger" issues well known. We can see differeces in opinion by the answers given so far. Maybe you should take basic questions more serious. Smart answers help everyone! Ah see - now this is a good answer! I see - Custer retreated, in substance ending his initial support, because Reno halted. Reno had not retreated yet (see martin), but his halt was enough to mess up Custer, somehow. I see. Ugh! How did Custer know Reno halted/skirmished? Bouyer? Thanks - this makes some sense. I take it that is why HE went 1.5 miles up into the NE hills! Better flank attack from up there, I guess. Or even farther North (don't mention ford D - HR hates that! ) Might have been had Benteen joined them and ASAP. Poor Reno left to his own that whole time though, & messed up by reteating. Got it!
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Post by Bruce Robert on Aug 5, 2024 11:16:44 GMT -6
Once again, the never ending attack on officers to justify Custer. Custer was not the "rat," nor was he the hero. This battle, and this never ending nit-picking nonsense to justify ones particular beliefs is disrespectful at best. One example: Reno was not ordered to attack or charge the village. the village had not been spotted yet. How does one charge that which is not yet seen? He was ordered to chazse down the NA's from Lone Tepee Village. I could go on, but is pointless as this entire forum has all one needs to disect the battle, and come to a reasonable conclusion as to what did and did not happen. This is like the proverbial "beating a horse to death," 47 times. Time to let the horse RIP. If you insist on absolutes, you will never be satisfied. Like having something stuck in your teeth, and no matter how much prodding and poking, the damn thing won't come out. There is no way to find absolutes for this battle, only make them up as needed. Humans make mistakes. We were not there. Reno did not fail. Benteen did not fail. Custer did not fail. The NA's beat them, fair and square. Absolutes are for cowards, who cannot, or will not, accept life as it is: ephemeral. This was not Custer's best day as a commander. That does not condemn him, no more so than Gettysburg condemns Lee. The simple fact that seems to not be acceptable to some, is that on this day Custer should have reconned more carefully, and come to the conclusion that an attack was not prudent. And all the nit-picking will not change that. You do not split your command five ways and win battles. Custer was the overall commander. The buck stops with him. Again, this does not condemn him, but it certainly does not make him the hero the "Libby Lies" would have you believe.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 26, 2024 19:20:57 GMT -6
Personally, I am not here to be a parrot. I am here to find out and talk about what actually happened. What actually happened - & where - not what/where someone who wasn't there SAYS happened. Details matter. Confirmed details best of all! In that manner I have found out all kinds of good & ACTUAL stuff about what was. Ah facts! Anyone else should feel free to reach their own goals in their own way. (within forum/administrator rules & wishes of course!)
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