Captain Thomas Weir

[logan]

This officer I find myself keeping coming back to, due to his attempt through his own actions, to ride towards where Custer was fighting, motivating the others the follow, until they had to retreat due to approaching warriors. It is quite sad to learn he was badly affected by the events of Little Bighorn and died not long afterwards quite a broken man

[noggy]

Mar 21, 2023 13:00:13 GMT -6 logan said:

This officer I find myself keeping coming back to, due to his attempt through his own actions, to ride towards where Custer was fighting, motivating the others the follow, until they had to retreat due to approaching warriors. It is quite sad to learn he was badly affected by the events of Little Bighorn and died not long afterwards quite a broken man

Wasn't Weir's actions basically ins...ehm..insubordination (correctly spelled?) Could he have been court-martialed had his commanding officer been another and not in his own pot of hot water?

(I'm here speaking from a strictly military protocol point)

Noggy

[logan]

You do make an interesting point, but to court martial Weir would’ve reflected badly on Reno and Benteen, so many others would have to give evidence of not only the events and actions of officers, but their own decision-making and lack of motivation to discover facts of what was going on. In my opinion, I really feel if Weir had been court martialed he may have welcomed it to get his views across on the failings, without the trial being held in a closed-door court but in public to prove just what exactly he witnessed. They wouldn’t have dared to court martial him.

i recently read that apparently just before his death he wanted to share information with Elizabeth Custer that he truly believed she should know, but sadly died before he could disclose details that he must’ve considered too important to keep quiet

[noggy]

Mar 22, 2023 12:24:00 GMT -6 logan said:

You do make an interesting point, but to court martial Weir would’ve reflected badly on Reno and Benteen, so many others would have to give evidence of not only the events and actions of officers, but their own decision-making and lack of motivation to discover facts of what was going on. In my opinion, I really feel if Weir had been court martialed he may have welcomed it to get his views across on the failings, without the trial being held in a closed-door court but in public to prove just what exactly he witnessed. They wouldn’t have dared to court martial him.

i recently read that apparently just before his death he wanted to share information with Elizabeth Custer that he truly believed she should know, but sadly died before he could disclose details that he must’ve considered too important to keep quiet

That's why I mentioned the hot water. Reno was the commanding officer and ordered his troop to stay at a given place. Weir said "screw that" and just left. In other circumstances, that would get you in trouble. Big trouble. But Reno had his own mess to handle after the battle so of course that excursion was a minor incident in the big picture.

Both Weir and Benteen aluded to some shady stuff. If I recall correctly, Benteen told either Wallace or Edgerly about something "blood chilling" or soemthing like it he had seen or heard on reno Hill regarding Reno, but I haven't got the quote in my head.

[logan]

Although LBH isn’t my main interest, I use it continually as a comparison. In my humble opinion, Weir attempted to go to Custer’s aid not just through loyalty and duty, but there was something else, whether it be his prior knowledge of animosity in the relationships between Custer, Benteen or Reno which concerned him in a battlefield scenario, or he had heard/observed Reno/Benteen about their views on the situation and Custer’s fate, that he felt absolutely compelled to help Custer even at the risk of court martial.

In the aftermath, I feel that this knowledge was the information he wanted to share with Elizabeth, as beyond his traumatic experience at LBH, something was eating away at him that he couldn’t disclose officially, which was making him ill, therefore, towards the end of his life, he wished to make what is known as a dying declaration, not written down on paper that can be conveniently lost, but verbally in front of Elizabeth and other witnesses, as his health had deteriorated so much, death being likely.

[noggy]

Mar 23, 2023 6:31:57 GMT -6 logan said:

Although LBH isn’t my main interest, I use it continually as a comparison. In my humble opinion, Weir attempted to go to Custer’s aid not just through loyalty and duty, but there was something else, whether it be his prior knowledge of animosity in the relationships between Custer, Benteen or Reno which concerned him in a battlefield scenario, or he had heard/observed Reno/Benteen about their views on the situation and Custer’s fate, that he felt absolutely compelled to help Custer even at the risk of court martial.

Weir's motive for doing what he did is not questioned.

This was a combat situation where the enemy was "somewhere". An order to stay united where they were was given. Weir disobeyed and left. The result was a gradual disintegration of the Reno-Benteen force as it started moving towards Weir point. Imagine if the Indians found these troopers strung out along the ridges. People have been arrested on spot, court-martialed and even shot for such behavior as Weir's during combat. Having good intentions does not mean you are free to do whatever you want to do or feel is right. Especially in the Army, and especially when in a combat zone. One doesn't have to like one's orders, but imagine if all the officers present had their own plans they started acting on.

Now that being said, Reno should of course have sent someone to look, that is clear. 

Noggy

[logan]

It could be argued that Reno and Benteen disobeyed their orders, and that Weir was trying to obey the original orders, before the attack on the camp. Reno fled, Benteen turned back and left Custer without two wings of an enveloping movement. As Weir couldn’t surround the whole camp with his small force, the only option he had was to support Custer, or at least draw off some of the warriors attacking him.

If Weir had instead done what Reno and Benteen did, if they had been the ones going out to aid Custer and Weir stayed put refusing to support Custer, he’d have been tried for disobeying orders, misconduct in front of the enemy, and quite likely cowardice, for not heading out to rescue his senior commander.

A case of damned if he did, damned if he didn’t

[noggy]

Mar 23, 2023 15:50:52 GMT -6 logan said:

It could be argued that Reno and Benteen disobeyed their orders, and that Weir was trying to obey the original orders, before the attack on the camp. Reno fled, Benteen turned back and left Custer without two wings of an enveloping movement. As Weir couldn’t surround the whole camp with his small force, the only option he had was to support Custer, or at least draw off some of the warriors attacking him.

If Weir had instead done what Reno and Benteen did, if they had been the ones going out to aid Custer and Weir stayed put refusing to support Custer, he’d have been tried for disobeying orders, misconduct in front of the enemy, and quite likely cowardice, for not heading out to rescue his senior commander.

A case of damned if he did, damned if he didn’t

I disagree.

Custer more or less disobeyed his own orders when he went off on his own, telling nobody where he was going, and not supporting Reno like he promised. This placed Reno's unit in a very dangerous situation, and totally in the blue as far as what was going on. Had they not pulled back (the fashion this was done was not good), they would all have been added to the KIA tally. And Custer would have been to blame. You speak of an enveloping movement, which may have been what he planned, but remember: In that case, he never told either Benteen or Reno this. Reno thought Custer with the strongest of the three battalions would come support him. Benteen had left assuming the rest of the Regiment were advancing together. You can't perform an enveloping movement when 2/3s of the forces engaged don't know they are supposed to envelop something. They were not mind readers and could not know what kind of bright idea Custer got after Reno rode off towards the village with promises of back-up. 

Benteen's order was to move away from the battle, the only reason he was anywhere near what was going on and help Reno, was that he "disobeyed" and turned back towards the village area. Who knows how the battle would have gone had he not.

My point was and is only that from a military perspective, Weir disobeyed orders. Reno did not, unless he was supposed to stand and die alone in the valley due to his superior letting it happend due to not keeping his word. Weir's action isolated is not that big deal, but remember this led to the whole force becomming confused and moving towards Weir Point. Strung out liek that, they would have been massacred like Custer's command was if caught out in the open. 


Noggy

[logan]

Unfortunately, the points you make are the ones that literally go in circles without conclusions. Nobody appears to look ‘outside the box’ for historical precedents, where an isolated force most likely engaged against overwhelming numbers, is attempted to be reached by nearby ‘allied’ forces, the latter sustaining many casualties in the process, compelled by duty to rescue that part of their force that if remaining unsupported will likely be annihilated.

Reno and Benteen sitting on their hands inactive, unwilling to commit their forces, which observed by the warriors, the latter were aware they could strengthen their numbers opposing Custer whilst the former were pondering their own position, not the necessity to maintain pressure on the village, Reno and Benteen could be ‘dealt with’ after Custer had been wiped out.

It was a disgrace, think there is a quote by a trooper in Reno’s battalion who said something like - ‘if we hadn’t been led by a coward, we’d all have been killed’ - however, not being my main interest this source may not be fact.

The ‘Reno didn’t know’ and ‘Benteen didn’t know’ any set plan or where Custer was is the biggest red herring in the whole scenario, they were military men not naive recruits, it was actually a case of ‘Custer didn’t know’ instead, that both Reno and Benteen had gave up on following his orders, therefore giving up on Custer, joined forces and whined about being let down by him, the very man who was fighting for his life not too far away with their fellow troopers, likely looking for reinforcements to appear in the ‘nick of time’ like any good cavalry film.

I’m not a Custer defender, but being interested in military history for several decades, I can identify in LBH the betrayal of a commander and the men under his immediate command, by officers who blatantly left the former to face overwhelming numbers alone, the warriors in full knowledge that Reno and Benteen would not be joining the fight, which most likely inspired confidence in the warriors that the cavalry could be defeated piecemeal, lacking unity with the force abandoned to its fate blaming the commander who was still trying to complete the mission, not knowing the others had given up not only on the mission but on him too.

It really is the saddest example of two officers holding back vital assistance and letting many of their men perish nearby without trying to help immediately, no matter the cost

[AZ Ranger]

Mar 21, 2023 13:00:13 GMT -6 logan said:

This officer I find myself keeping coming back to, due to his attempt through his own actions, to ride towards where Custer was fighting, motivating the others the follow, until they had to retreat due to approaching warriors. It is quite sad to learn he was badly affected by the events of Little Bighorn and died not long afterwards quite a broken man

Weir never attempted to ride toward Custer. He never went past Weir Points, which is a good forward observer location. His company went further north, but not Weir commanded.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[AZ Ranger]

Mar 23, 2023 6:31:57 GMT -6 logan said:

Although LBH isn’t my main interest, I use it continually as a comparison. In my humble opinion, Weir attempted to go to Custer’s aid not just through loyalty and duty, but there was something else, whether it be his prior knowledge of animosity in the relationships between Custer, Benteen or Reno which concerned him in a battlefield scenario, or he had heard/observed Reno/Benteen about their views on the situation and Custer’s fate, that he felt absolutely compelled to help Custer even at the risk of court martial.

In the aftermath, I feel that this knowledge was the information he wanted to share with Elizabeth, as beyond his traumatic experience at LBH, something was eating away at him that he couldn’t disclose officially, which was making him ill, therefore, towards the end of his life, he wished to make what is known as a dying declaration, not written down on paper that can be conveniently lost, but verbally in front of Elizabeth and other witnesses, as his health had deteriorated so much, death being likely.

Weir went only so far in Reno Creek, and Benteen caught up with him easily. Weir went as far as Weir Peak, and Benteen caught up with him easily. Moving to a forward observation location is something that should have been done, and Weir would be justified. Edgerly moved out with the company on his own and never reached MTC. If anything, that movement screwed things up by drawing attention without having a force to counter the Indians coming toward them.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[AZ Ranger]

Mar 23, 2023 15:50:52 GMT -6 logan said:

It could be argued that Reno and Benteen disobeyed their orders, and that Weir was trying to obey the original orders, before the attack on the camp. Reno fled, Benteen turned back and left Custer without two wings of an enveloping movement. As Weir couldn’t surround the whole camp with his small force, the only option he had was to support Custer, or at least draw off some of the warriors attacking him.

If Weir had instead done what Reno and Benteen did, if they had been the ones going out to aid Custer and Weir stayed put refusing to support Custer, he’d have been tried for disobeying orders, misconduct in front of the enemy, and quite likely cowardice, for not heading out to rescue his senior commander.

A case of damned if he did, damned if he didn’t

What orders? Bring them to battle? If anything, Reno brought too many Indians to battle. Come on and bring packs took place, and there is no stopping place in the order. We don't even know if he was to go to Reno or which side of the river. Come on without specification usually means to the commander or the writer of the note. Did Custer expect to be across the river and on the same side as the Big Village? We know for fact that Custer's five companies were fixed and destroyed in place without being on defense. There is no mutual support with overlapping fields of fire.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[AZ Ranger]

Mar 24, 2023 4:18:00 GMT -6 logan said:

Unfortunately, the points you make are the ones that literally go in circles without conclusions. Nobody appears to look ‘outside the box’ for historical precedents, where an isolated force most likely engaged against overwhelming numbers, is attempted to be reached by nearby ‘allied’ forces, the latter sustaining many casualties in the process, compelled by duty to rescue that part of their force that if remaining unsupported will likely be annihilated.

You mean like Major Elliot? There never was a mission to save Custer. There is no military precedence including Custer not going to Major Elliot. No soldier would think Custer, with 5 companies, could not care for themselves.

Reno and Benteen sitting on their hands inactive, unwilling to commit their forces, which observed by the warriors, the latter were aware they could strengthen their numbers opposing Custer whilst the former were pondering their own position, not the necessity to maintain pressure on the village, Reno and Benteen could be ‘dealt with’ after Custer had been wiped out.

Reno's command had soldiers coming to the rallying place. The horses were blown, riding up the bluff. It would take time for them to recover. I rode up from Reno's crossing to the bluff and at a walk, and it was taxing on my horse. Try riding it under fire and as fast as your horse can move.

It was a disgrace, think there is a quote by a trooper in Reno’s battalion who said something like - ‘if we hadn’t been led by a coward, we’d all have been killed’ - however, not being my main interest this source may not be fact.

If Custer had remained a regimental commander then the 12 companies would have moved in concert. Instead Custer fed the 7th Cavalry to the Indians a few companies at a time.

The ‘Reno didn’t know’ and ‘Benteen didn’t know’ any set plan or where Custer was is the biggest red herring in the whole scenario, they were military men not naive recruits, it was actually a case of ‘Custer didn’t know’ instead, that both Reno and Benteen had gave up on following his orders, therefore giving up on Custer, joined forces and whined about being let down by him, the very man who was fighting for his life not too far away with their fellow troopers, likely looking for reinforcements to appear in the ‘nick of time’ like any good cavalry film.

When you make up the orders it makes it easy to say they didn't follow them.

I’m not a Custer defender, but being interested in military history for several decades, I can identify in LBH the betrayal of a commander and the men under his immediate command, by officers who blatantly left the former to face overwhelming numbers alone, the warriors in full knowledge that Reno and Benteen would not be joining the fight, which most likely inspired confidence in the warriors that the cavalry could be defeated piecemeal, lacking unity with the force abandoned to its fate blaming the commander who was still trying to complete the mission, not knowing the others had given up not only on the mission but on him too.

I can't accept your ability to use fictitious orders to form an opinion.

It really is the saddest example of two officers holding back vital assistance and letting many of their men perish nearby without trying to help immediately, no matter the cost

Can you share with us where the mission as ordered was changed to the mission of saving Custer? Please share the military protocol for that.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[logan]

I’ve just realised my OP has attracted only two members, an expert and a grandmaster, not others of the same quality of knowledge as myself to hold a balanced discussion on an even level. I’d imagine others of my limited knowledge don’t last long after giving their own viewpoints, even when thought to be educated guesses.

I’m from the U.K., thought it’d be great to get more involved in a different subject and discussions, as I use LBH as a comparative history.

Think it’ll have to remain just that, as I can’t compete with such high ranking members.

Regards

[Yan Taylor]

Nothing wrong with your posts mate, I too hail from the sceptered isles of Great Britain, been around here for well over a decade.
A lot of members have either died or moved on, but that's life.
I don't know much about the questions you ask, a lot of it is not my field im afraid but I still read your posts though.

Ian