logan
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Posts: 202
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Post by logan on Mar 24, 2023 11:48:00 GMT -6
Appreciate it, witnessed the same on forums regarding my main subject
I can’t judge this forum, not been on it long enough or contributed anything of real worth since joining..
On the forums I was on years ago, many newly joined members with little knowledge or none at all were literally frightened off when they themselves or others they witnessed, were almost immediately being responded to in a condescending manner, mocked or ridiculed, by those considered more informed, so new members tapered off to nothing, not willing to undergo such ‘trials’.
I know enough on various subjects, but as a generalist not an expert, to pose questions and form opinions, but I can’t bring myself to go through similar elsewhere, seen it happen too often.
It’s a pity as it’s good to discuss aspects with others rather than just always reading previous threads remaining disconnected from the member community
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Post by noggy on Mar 24, 2023 12:32:07 GMT -6
I’ve just realised my OP has attracted only two members, an expert and a grandmaster, not others of the same quality of knowledge as myself to hold a balanced discussion on an even level. I’d imagine others of my limited knowledge don’t last long after giving their own viewpoints, even when thought to be educated guesses. I’m from the U.K., thought it’d be great to get more involved in a different subject and discussions, as I use LBH as a comparative history. Think it’ll have to remain just that, as I can’t compete with such high ranking members. Logan. Come on. There is no need to go on the defensive just because someone adresses your post and disagrees, even strongly. Your opinion is as valid as mine or anyone else; the «expert» title is something which comes from my number of posts, mainly stupid questions, as I am probably the least knowledgeable guy in here when it comes to the battle. But this is a discussion forum. So I assume I can answer. Because I really think you are off on this one, whereas other times I have agreed. And, really enjoyed your posts too. I love when people have different «strengths»; mine is the WW1 in East Africa. I can see parallells there to the Indian wars, as you can with the Zulu war(s). In this case I do believe you mix your own feelings or opinions into the historical and military fact. I'll try to answer in short: Let's start with the basic, which we both will agree upon, up to the point where GAC has split the Regiment into four different columns: GAC starts off with the regiment united. He sends away Benteen to look for satellite villages, or something. Some say he wanted to get rid of him since there was a lot of bad blood. Had he found one, he could, depending on size of a village, have been in real trouble, He continues with 8 companies (the pack train and guards are removed from his command along the ride). He sends Reno with 3 companies towards a huge camp, and promises to follow up and support him. He doesn't. Never sends a messenger or anything. Reno, I believe, sent two to GAC: I assume we are in agreement so far. Reno and all his men would have been killed, if they stayed in the Valley. And they would have been so basically because GAC changed his mind/lied/whatever. I see no attempt from your side to call this treason or what not. I see it as a hideous thing to do. Especially if, as it seems, he at one point could see what was going on in the Valley and knew Reno was in trouble down there. THAT is surely a «disgrace», right? The only orders Reno got was to charge the Village, which he tried, and got his ass kicked. You know...no support and such. Benteen's order was to go away, then later the vague «Bring packs» thing, which would have meant he would have arrived later than he did. That is, if he had followed them, with the mules being slow and all....Luckily for Reno and co, Benteen chose to not drag along the mules. But I hardly think that is something to criticize him for? Other than that, there were no orders, like Steve points out. I'll take your word for it when you say you are not a "Custer defender", and I would have no personal issue with you being one, but I have seen similar arguments made by genuine Custer defenders. In your post you do not make one critical comment about his actions, even if his decision-making was what ruined the day for the US side. He led his me into doom, and more could have died. Benteen saved his and Reno's the following day and a half. What many thinks Reno should have done is the following: Leave the wounded behind, ride off on half dead horses searching blindly for GAC, go into the same terrain he had gone into which was not suitable for cavalry, and where about a thousand warriors (plus, plus) could shoot them down from concealed positions the same way they had done earlier. It would look very glorious if they all were killed, at least to those who weren't there. The «logic» that Custer never saying anything about any of his plans nor keeping his word is just swell but that Reno and Benteen were stupid gits for not figuring out what kind of Napoleonic masterstroke GAC was trying to pull does not sit well with me. At all. Was it not Clausewitz who said something along the lines of «Move individually, fight united»? GAC did the opposite. He broke up the Regiment, despite being warned about it by...well, Benteen and probably more people who had half a brain and were present. Your friend, Noggy PS: I would hardly worry about being a Brit on here, there are/have been several. I, on the other, hand am the only Norwegian here. Now that is real minority! I demand that the 17th of May is celebrated in here! The I'll join in when you guys introduce fish and chips + a pint for £5-day here too. PS2: Like I said, I too feel Reno should have tried to make contact or sent a scout/something to find GAC's location. Few came from this battle with a perfect score card, but GAC's was by far the worst of the US ones.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 25, 2023 8:33:20 GMT -6
I bet you all a blast on Grunnlovsdagen, good for you , £5, that is over 60 Krone isnt it . Fish and Chips plus a pint wont be £5 in our town, if I went the chippy and bought just standard fish and chips, it would cost me £8, add another £4 for a pint in a pub. Geir is also right about sticking it out, all these boards are quiet at the moment, then suddenly they come to life. Ian
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Post by noggy on Mar 26, 2023 2:49:25 GMT -6
Fish and Chips plus a pint wont be £5 in our town, if I went the chippy and bought just standard fish and chips, it would cost me £8, add another £4 for a pint in a pub. Hehe, yes I know...In 08 or 09 we ran into the most shady place in Birmingham, where £5 for fish-chips plus a pint was their special offer...it was the most horrendous thing I have tasted. Became a running joke among my mates ever since. £4 for a pint...I must laugh, here you might be lucky if you catch a 0,4 liter for £8/80 kr. Geir
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 26, 2023 3:17:03 GMT -6
In 2009, wow you were robbed, you should have looked for a weatherspoons.
Ian
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Post by noggy on Mar 26, 2023 3:42:59 GMT -6
In 2009, wow you were robbed, you should have looked for a weatherspoons. Ian We were robbed just by paying. Worst thing I've tasted.
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Post by shan on Mar 26, 2023 9:43:40 GMT -6
With the two boards that I like to drop into from time to time reduced to wondering how long it took ~~ to very the minute mind you ~~ for this or that part of the command to water their horses, or else chat about local politics or the price of fish and chips, I wonder if we've reached the end of what we can possible know about this battle, particularly what happened after Custer wong disappeared from sight.
Whilst we've all been happy enough to argue for years now as to whether Custer went down Ceder coulee, or if not, then maybe Middle coulee, or else how many warriors were invovled in the fight, was it 1,000 or even 20,000, in effect those issues are merely the padding in the parcel, because if your anything like me, what brought you here in the first place was an itch, an itch that wouldn't go away, an itch comprising a wish to know what the hell happened to Custers wing during that last couple of hours.
Like most, I had hoped that some new information would come to light: some long lost letter from Weir or someone who'd been up there with him at the time, or even better from my perspective, that some of the Cheyenne or Sioux, or even the Arrapahoe's come to that, finally decided to talk about some of things they'd known, all along, but had wished to keep to themselves. But look, lets face it, it ain't going to happen.
So, can we learn anything fresh by continuing to dig over what is in effect barren ground? Will it make one iota of difference if we know for certain that Custer went down middle coulee, or that Gall only arrived after Custers force had vacated Calhoun hill? I hope so, but I'm afraid from where I'm sitting with weakening eyesight, this is looking more and more like a gigantic jigsaw puzzle which, whilst preportingto show the battle in every little detail, is in effect, only showing sky.
By the way Logan, don't worry if people either don't bother to reply to your posts, or else disagee and call you names, it happens all the time, just dig down and hang in there, for contrary to what I've been saying above, there are people out there who know a thing or two.
Shan
Shan
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logan
Full Member
Posts: 202
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Post by logan on Mar 26, 2023 11:27:35 GMT -6
Shan
I feel compelled to respond to your comment in the third paragraph, this does happen as it just recently has in my main interest.
An evidence file compiled by the Royal Engineers in the aftermath of Isandhlwana, investigating events and activities taking place bordering on criminal, to lay blame for the defeat on the senior commander Col. A.W. Durnford, which they had intended to produce in a court of inquiry. However, this evidence wasn’t allowed to be introduced and was suppressed by the powers that be, as it would have caused upset both in military circles and in public, as the ‘official’ narrative of the campaign was knowingly flawed and published before full information was forthcoming.
It was a Durnford descendant who accidentally discovered this file in the RE Museum’s archives, hidden for 140 years, and the curious thing is, the descendant was researching her family history, not a student of the Zulu War 1879. How did every author/historian miss this in over a century, but many continued damning the commander without delving deep for such primary sources.
The descendant has published these details in a two volume set, the evidence file termed ‘THE ISANDHLWANA PAPERS’, but here’s the rub, absolutely nobody wants to discuss these books, the new material or even fiully acknowledging it exists - not enthusiasts, authors or historians.
I’m working on going about acquiring a Freedom Of Information Request to get this evidence out of the archives, and other documents referred to but missing, likely filed wrongly, to get it all added to the historical record, therefore can’t be denied or ignored in any new books about Isandhlwana.
So, this example demonstrates new sources can be found, but, and this is important, not many appear to be overjoyed it has been discovered, even though it fills gaps and corrects misrepresentations put forward immediately after Isandhlwana by superior authority, that damned Durnford in the court of public opinion.
New sources can be found, but some may want it to remain buried...maybe even destroyed.
I’m sorely disappointed in this, primary sources always sought out, but it seems, only if it agrees with majority thinking.
Be careful what you wish for my friend, as you might be surprised even shocked at any negative reactions.
Regards
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 26, 2023 12:59:51 GMT -6
With the two boards that I like to drop into from time to time reduced to wondering how long it took ~~ to very the minute mind you ~~ for this or that part of the command to water their horses, or else chat about local politics or the price of fish and chips, I wonder if we've reached the end of what we can possible know about this battle, particularly what happened after Custer wong disappeared from sight. Shan, please, you have only been on once since last year and you moan about Noggy (who by the way is a regular) and myself talking about fish and chips AFAIK no one has took offence or had a dig at Logan, in fact he has the support of many on here. Ian
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Post by noggy on Mar 27, 2023 12:51:56 GMT -6
I see no name-calling. it would never occur to me to do so here. If anyone feels my FNC-comment was disturbing to the seriousness of the forum, I apologize, slightly, but not really.
I'm done.
Noggy
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logan
Full Member
Posts: 202
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Post by logan on Mar 27, 2023 17:40:38 GMT -6
Well it seems I need to involve myself in the very thing I wanted to prevent.
Thanks to noggy’s friendly post I want to continue in this vein.
My saying that ‘I can’t compete with high ranking members’ is based on past bad experiences.
IIve been told many things when I disagreed with noted members on other forums - ‘write a book then we’ll listen’...‘you’ve been here five minutes and disagreeing with established members’...’I personally know the person you are disagreeing with and he is a friend’....’he is an. ex-military man what are you’... etc., and so forth. I not only had to confront the person I disagreed with, but his friends, fan club, those wishing to be seen to be involved, and the rest of the world it felt like...but that said, I fought back !
A novice as I am in this instance, can only deal with points in their opinion dealt with one at a time, not swamped by all of them all at once, as then, it is not a ‘discussion’ it is a questionnaire, and interrogation of sorts, instead of going over point by point.
A novice being overwhelmed by too much info is off-putting, to the extent they feel they are being made an example of, due to lacking knowledge at an equal level.
My advice...meant as helpful, not critical...set up a new section for complete novices to get a feel for the forum and those who have quality info to share with them.
I don’t know how else to put this if there are underlying tensions within the community, but it is presented with the best intentions.
Regards to all
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 28, 2023 1:15:51 GMT -6
To be honest Logan, there is no tension on this board, but I have seen some ding dong fracas in the past.
I always read what you post, but as I have said before, I don't have the data to help you in your field.
I have loads of maps and unit data, so if you need anything like that just ask.
Ian
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logan
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Posts: 202
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Post by logan on Mar 28, 2023 3:02:23 GMT -6
Thanks Ian
Little Bighorn is a fascinating subject, though I do know my limitations. Of all those present, two men interest me - Captain Thomas Weir and reporter Mark Kellogg.
Weir, due to the fact as a comparative history, sort of did what the officer I study done at Isandhlwana, suspecting that his senior commander was under attack, he rode out with his own mounted men. Unfortunately, the former had been unaware an army of 20,000 warriors had been hidden nearby and attacked the British camp, literally wiping it out. The area which was the furthest the officer reached before turning back I call ‘Durnford Point’ as a nod to Weir.
Kellogg, as I’ve a huge interest lately in war correspondents, and the fact that Kellogg not only accompanied Custer but was killed with him. I even acquired the book about him called - ‘I Go With Custer’.
I used to think if I had been a re-enactor at Zulu War events, I’d have portrayed the senior officer at Isandhlwana, however, being a war correspondent is more appealing. I’d have taken notes at the events, sketched images (drawing not photographing) playing the part as accurately as I could.
I always regret that there hadn’t been a photographer like Illingworth(?) who had accompanied the Black Hills Expedition in 1874, and took numerous well-thought-out images of the camps, etc., as tbh if such images had been taken of the Isandhlwana Camp before the attack, exactly how it looked, the photographs would have been absolute gold to students of the subject.
I’ve looked over the previous responses to my comments about Weir, etc., by noggy and AZ Ranger, and do feel I could make a valiant though likely wrong effort to reply to them, as I must admit, I debate/discuss matters quite aggressively, that irks my fellow members.
Maybe once I learn more it could still happen.
Best
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Post by shan on Mar 28, 2023 9:26:09 GMT -6
Yan,
My attempt at irony obviously failed, seems irony dosen't work on the screen as I've just been taught, Ouch! But look, in spite of you chastising me for only having been on the board once since last year ~ in fact I visit ever day, and have done for the last twenty years ~ I nevertheless agree with you that there is very little tension on the board. So let's sign a peace treaty.
Ironically, when I set out with that post, it was in the hope that it might kick start a new debate or discussion about the things we don't know, namely, what happened to Custer after he was last seem up on the bluffs. Myself, I've always felt that the battle was over much quicker than most books would have one believe. I remember when I first started reaing the Indian reports, that the over riding feeling one got from them was that the battle ~ Custers part of it ~ didn't last very long. Of course people have argued that Indians didn't have the same concept of time that we have. "It took as long as it takes a man to eat his meal." What the hell does that mean? Does and Insian eat a meal quicker than we do? Do they all eat quickly, or do some then linger over it and enjoy?
In this regard, I have a feeling that what Weir and those up there with him saw, was a moping up operation on Calhoun hill, with the fighting having already moved on down into the Keogh area. If so, then by the time they all moved back and consolidated what was to be their final postion, most of Custers men were dead.
logan, that piece you wrote about the evidence againgst senior commander Col. A.W. Durnford being surpressed was extremly interesting. Your point is well taken, in which case, yes, there may well be evidence out there that could help explain a few things about the battle of LBH, but if its not in the archieves, or amongst offiial sources, then it can only be in letters or diarys. So is it possible that there can still be stuff hidden away in mouldering trunks up in attics? Personally I doubt it, but then I live in hope.
Shan
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logan
Full Member
Posts: 202
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Post by logan on Mar 28, 2023 9:51:43 GMT -6
Shan
Strangely enough, I’ve just recently read a novel called The Custer Conspiracy, a story about the discovery of what was known as The Custer Papers, the latter causing all kinds of murder and intrigue in the present day, as powers that be didn’t want them disclosed.
Not really a novel reader much, but bought it out of curiosity, read it but not my type of book at all
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