logan
Full Member
Posts: 202
|
Post by logan on Apr 18, 2023 17:06:52 GMT -6
Interesting but conflicting post too.
Dark Cloud you didn’t know but was an expert on this topic, yet many disagreed with him and he was disliked immensely. I’m curious to know why he was so hated and disagreed with, especially if the latter that he was an expert on the subject, as how then could he be so wrong in other’s minds ? Apparently not so expert.
Fred I seem to recall is also an expert and author on the subject, think I’ve got one of his books, but to say Weir was even then a drunk, immediately stains Weir with the same brush that I think Reno who was presumed to like alcohol too.
I wonder if there a connection to these claims, Weir and Reno unfit officers but Benteen was admired and a commanding presence taking control of the situation in hand...except in aiding Custer without having to feel compelled by Weir (a drunk)....I’m not convinced by this at all.
Any man in Benteen’s situation at that moment would look like the ideal officer, when the two others were supposedly troubled by drink, one also disobeying orders, but that would only be in appearance rather than fact, in my own opinion, a case of him giving the impression of - ‘look what I had to work with (Reno/Weir) so what was I expected to do exactly ?’
Like you, I pursue facts and form my own opinions, but prefer not putting my trust in what others say, I like to be more of independent thought, as too many opinions by others clouds the mind and prevents having a clear way of thinking my own conclusions.
I follow the evidence and question like a cop too (Columbo is my hero) but also using my interest in investigative journalism, seeking facts not considered before, then as how a lawyer could build a case using such information.
Therefore....seeking out the main ‘suspects’ and studying what they said and done (cop)....making notes as if writing a newspaper report (journalist)....how it would play out in court either as the defence or prosecution (lawyer)
Absolutely never give up on primary sources being discovered even after more than a century, archives are like that of the warehouse at the end of Raiders Of The Lost Ark, boxed or filed and gathering dust, over time forgotten, records of the items long lost or misplaced.
I’ve recently mentioned here that a couple of years ago, a descendant of the officer I study, researching her family history, uncovered a 300-page evidence file of the investigation by the officer’s Corps (Royal Engineers) of the events leading to his death and the activities taking place after it to pin blame solely on him for the defeat, but was suppressed all these years.
I constantly imagine if it was myself defending a brother accused of bringing about such a disaster, but much like Michael Caine’s character in my favourite film of his, I call it my ‘going all Get Carter’, to get to the truth of the facts leading to his brother’s death and questioning all those involved in some capacity no matter the consequences.
What do you honestly think yourself Jenny, as your comment is really only stating what others said ?
|
|
Jenny
Full Member
Posts: 200
|
Post by Jenny on Apr 20, 2023 10:20:31 GMT -6
Well...thanks for asking! My dad was an investigative reporter for a big daily in Oregon (retired but still alive and still writing) and he is always saying that history is not about what but who. I think the day of the Battle of Little Bighorn was an event where people were being, well, themselves. It was the reason that it devolved into chaos and is the reason we are now fascinated, mystified and confused by it. It's the reason for this forum! We are being ourselves by studying it and asking questions from every angle. My angle is the small stuff, not specific movements and military orders. If I look at things from the point of view of the person in question I can see why they made the decisions they did. It made sense to that person. Weir didn't develop a sudden drinking problem after LBH, it was already firmly in place. Him being a drunk doesn't detract from the fact that he seemed like an intelligent and feeling person, and probably a high-functioning person in that he held a fairly high rank. In fact, you could argue that a drinking problem develops from BEING intelligent and feeling, and wanting to quiet those thoughts. Reno had problems, so did Benteen. Name a guy who didn't in that outfit!
Since you like to quote movies, remember what Hannibal Lecter said in "Silence of the Lambs?" He quoted Marcus Aurelius (this is an approximation): "What does he do? What is his nature?" In the case of Weir, I still think he's simply guilty of an excess of love, which explains why he did everything he did.
Fire away!
J
|
|
Jenny
Full Member
Posts: 200
|
Post by Jenny on Apr 20, 2023 10:25:27 GMT -6
And incidentally, the humanity of this battle is the reason I embarked on my painting project. I feel for these guys, even all these years later. I feel they're unrest and I'm silly enough to think that this might help them.
J
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Apr 20, 2023 13:44:21 GMT -6
Wasn't Weir's actions basically ins...ehm..insubordination (correctly spelled?) Could he have been court-martialed had his commanding officer been another and not in his own pot of hot water? (I'm here speaking from a strictly military protocol point) Noggy Noggy, Strictly military protocol? Interesting point. Would that be the "strict military protocol" of 1876 or the military protocol of say.....1976? Just weeks earlier Reno himself took it on himself to extend his scout and went up the Rosebud when he was told not to go. I am sure Weir's actions were not as bad in 1876 as they might have been in 1945. I think it is rather obvious to all that military protocol is always evolving. That was the problem with many of Fred Wagner's views of the battle. He kept trying to use 1976 army standards to judge 1876 reality. Times change. Reno disobeyed orders and extended his scout. Custer "disobeyed" orders and did not go to the tongue river....... Yes I know that Custer was also given the option of changing the plans. Those do not count to Fred and others Weir Went to the sound of the guns. Some say he disobeyed orders. What orders? Reno knew ( although after the fact) that Weir did the right thing. In fact, Reno changes the scenario to make it sound like he sent Weir as an advance scout. Rosebud Hi Just to be clear: When I speak of "protocol", it may be the wrong wording. One of the side effects of being a Norwegian. But a pretty timeless thing in any army is that if your superior says something, it has weight. His move North was not by order, without remembering the specifics I think Reno blatantly said "no", and it created confusion with troopers piecemeal venturing off, and they should be glad the NAs did not catch them out in the open. But ofc: Pretty sure I wrote in a post here that Reno absolutely should have sent someone to look fro GAC. That does however not mean anyone can take it upon themselves to do whatever they feel like at the moment because think it was/is right. As far as Fred and his view on things go, those were his. I miss him greatly here. All the best, Noggy
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Apr 20, 2023 13:51:26 GMT -6
Now, I didn't know DCloud but many people not only disagreed with him but hated his guts, so...take his comments with a grain of salt. BUT he was an expert on this topic, so there's that. I was not around here when DC lived, but I have stalked enough to know that it was his somewhat direct and combative style of debating many people could react to. He was very knowledgeable and struck me as someone who tried to make people analyze and rationalize. But often in a crass way many people did nor always like. And I don't think anyone here has ever HATED each other. The words people wrote about DC after his passing showed a lot of respect and appreciation. Noggy
|
|
logan
Full Member
Posts: 202
|
Post by logan on Apr 20, 2023 17:42:29 GMT -6
Jenny
I do believe in the concept of ‘Socratic Questioning’ or even being the ‘Devil’s Advocate’, as I don’t know if you have noticed yourself there is a ‘pattern’ present in forums, not intentionally, just a natural progression - repetitive questions, scripted answers, but no challenging, therefore when the latter happens are labelled (yes I was myself elsewhere) as a troublemaker, so pounded with negativity because It was going ‘against the grain’, ironically by the seeking of facts and the truth it is ‘spoiling’ majority thinking which is unacceptable to them, hence considered to be having some kind of agenda.
You do paintings, but my realisation from this, is to try to be able to demonstrate by evidence, tell descendants of the soldiers, troopers and innocent non-combatants, in any era, who was the ‘real’ villain, who got many if not everybody killed - the aim is to clear the name of scapegoats and give genuine closure by proving that it was this person/people/organisation that caused their ancestor’s death.
A bit deep I know, but that is my mindset,still actually going on elsewhere in my other interest
|
|
logan
Full Member
Posts: 202
|
Post by logan on Apr 20, 2023 17:55:15 GMT -6
Noggy.
Dark Cloud sounds like me tbh, but it is (to me anyway) out of frustration, not because I’m right, but alternatives are so dismissed, the study becomes stale and static.
I did become ignored, ridiculed and hated, trolled beyond forums on other social media by people I didn’t (and did know) even a decade later.
Recently found discoveries, as I have previously mentioned, what has happened ?.........Complete silence by those who were happily involved in the feeding frenzy beforehand !
If you’ve never heard how loud silence can be...trust me, your ‘ears’ struggle to adjust.
No response whatever is the most fantastic feeling....nobody knows how to oppose new evidence, especially primary sources, that goes against their conclusions based on details provided to that point.....plus their fear of activating a debate/discussion that goes against their established beliefs.
You can ‘win’ an argument by bringing your opposition to a standstill....their thoughts are completely frozen
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Apr 21, 2023 0:41:41 GMT -6
Recently found discoveries, as I have previously mentioned, what has happened ?.........Complete silence by those who were happily involved in the feeding frenzy beforehand ! I can only speak for myself here: I'll admit I have not/do not keep track on every post here, if you have psoted something about new facts, I have missed it and I'll be sure now to find this post/these posts and give it a look. Noggy
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Apr 21, 2023 0:48:28 GMT -6
Hi Just to be clear: When I speak of "protocol", it may be the wrong wording. One of the side effects of being a Norwegian. But a pretty timeless thing in any army is that if your superior says something, it has weight. His move North was not by order, without remembering the specifics I think Reno blatantly said "no", and it created confusion with troopers piecemeal venturing off, and they should be glad the NAs did not catch them out in the open. But ofc: Pretty sure I wrote in a post here that Reno absolutely should have sent someone to look fro GAC. That does however not mean anyone can take it upon themselves to do whatever they feel like at the moment because think it was/is right. All the best, Noggy Noggy, I agree with what you said......My only point is that not much was being done to those who "bent" orders. Okay, on that we agree. A large portion of the experts on this field have a very personal, in lack of a better term, connection to the battle and it's particiants (mainly the white ones, at least...). Some people love GAC, some hate him. Some people look at Benteen and Reno as "traitors", some as the ones as the guys who saved the rest of the Regiment (well okay, at least Benteen, who if memory serves me was dubbed "The savior of the 7th" by someone who was there). I don't. I do find some people more interesting than others, but it stops there. To me, the concept of equal treatment is key for any serious historian. And I agree that this is not always followed when it comes to LBH. All the best, Noggy
|
|
logan
Full Member
Posts: 202
|
Post by logan on Apr 21, 2023 4:05:59 GMT -6
Noggy
The new evidence was in my other subject.
Not aware of what Dark Cloud’s stance was on other aspects of LBH that others disagreed with, or any newly uncovered facts about it.
|
|
logan
Full Member
Posts: 202
|
Post by logan on Apr 21, 2023 5:51:20 GMT -6
Rosebud
Unfortunately, in order to find out if books are junk, you first have to read them, hence my enquiries about thoughts on the ones l listed, as the members on my other forum unrelated to LBH, obviously have zero interest in it.
The word ‘expert’ used to mean a noted and accomplished person on a given subject, alas it is becoming more like those considered celebrities because they were on a tv reality show, ithere seems to be a disconnect berween these words and many of the people labelled such. I’m definitely unimpressed, but then again, I’m an amateur as you kindly referred to.
Yes, I’ve read many books, so has anybody who wants to partake in discussions forums, without having read much or anything. On FB it is curious how many post photos of their bookcases full of books, many looking immaculate and likely unread, not sure the point other than showing off tbh.
Many of my comments are junk too...but people need to read them to find out 😁
My books are scattered and unorganised in any set subject, being a generalist, I only know some details about various matters, mostly of interest to myself.
I’m really quite flattered you read every one of my posts, even I wouldn’t want to read them en masse, as they do give away very quickly I don’t know what I’m talking about, best reading them individually a while between each
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 21, 2023 6:27:38 GMT -6
Their duty is the whole mission, it wasn’t about saving Custer it was about supporting him. It’s interesting that you mention 5 companies could defend themselves, when stating that Custer should’ve kept the 12 companies together, the latter giving the impression that any less couldn’t handle the Indians, especially half or even less that Custer had, plus defence needs a chosen ground to fight when resorting to making a stand, not to be run to ground and surrounded. Custer wished in my opinion to gain the initiative and hold on to it, as the moment he went on the defence, dismounting to fight he lost mobility, whereas the mounted and fleet of foot warriors could utilise the terrain to their advantage, attacking a static enemy, the latter likely used to remaining mounted to get in and out of action when required, not be cut off. If Custer had went into the defence, it was in all likelihood to be temporary until supported, which wasn’t forthcoming any time soon...or ever Sorry, but you are wrong. The mission was given by Terry. Custer sent Reno into the valley to initiate the mission contact. Custer told Reno he would be supported by the whole outfit. That is the mission and how Custer chose to implement it. Regards AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Apr 21, 2023 6:30:07 GMT -6
Quite some long while back, doesn't time fly? - A post of mine across two matters, included the proposition that Custer was killed on Calhoun Hill. This generated quite remarkable discussions and particularly from the senior mod who didn't handle rainy days particularly well.
The supposition was based in quite reasonable 'interpretation' of the information available about the Ute warrior 'Yellow Nose' and to lesser degree his adooted brother 'White Shield' and adopted father 'Spotted Wolf'. As has been pointed out recently, NA Indians were not averse to getting one over and were not bereft of humour such that understanding interpretted and signed conversation is an art form.
It was however, and still is, as clear as a dark cloudy night, that Custer's battleflag was taken by Yellow Nose in the area of Deep Coulee and Calhoun Hill. For that to have happened in the middle of the fight, some obvious conclusions are obvious despite going entirely against the accumulated grain of battle lore.
Fred Wagner was deep into sounding his theory of things at the time and boy, oh boy, was he tickled pink.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 21, 2023 6:37:06 GMT -6
Now, I didn't know DCloud but many people not only disagreed with him but hated his guts, so...take his comments with a grain of salt. BUT he was an expert on this topic, so there's that. I was not around here when DC lived, but I have stalked enough to know that it was his somewhat direct and combative style of debating many people could react to. He was very knowledgeable and struck me as someone who tried to make people analyze and rationalize. But often in a crass way many people did nor always like. And I don't think anyone here has ever HATED each other. The words people wrote about DC after his passing showed a lot of respect and appreciation. Noggy DC was my friend. We came to these boards from Against All Odds along with Wild.
Regards
AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Apr 21, 2023 6:43:41 GMT -6
Their duty is the whole mission, it wasn’t about saving Custer it was about supporting him. It’s interesting that you mention 5 companies could defend themselves, when stating that Custer should’ve kept the 12 companies together, the latter giving the impression that any less couldn’t handle the Indians, especially half or even less that Custer had, plus defence needs a chosen ground to fight when resorting to making a stand, not to be run to ground and surrounded. Custer wished in my opinion to gain the initiative and hold on to it, as the moment he went on the defence, dismounting to fight he lost mobility, whereas the mounted and fleet of foot warriors could utilise the terrain to their advantage, attacking a static enemy, the latter likely used to remaining mounted to get in and out of action when required, not be cut off. If Custer had went into the defence, it was in all likelihood to be temporary until supported, which wasn’t forthcoming any time soon...or ever Sorry, but you are wrong. The mission was given by Terry. Custer sent Reno into the valley to initiate the mission contact. Custer told Reno he would be supported by the whole outfit. That is the mission and how Custer chose to implement it. Regards AZ Ranger Here's an interesting thing about the mission. A number of participants gave testimony at the Chicago Inquiry into Reno's conduct on 25th June, 1876. Among them was Maj. Reno's Orderley that day and his account of what was ordered was entirely at odds with other accounts of the orders. That was Pvt. Davern. Edward was from Limerick and joined the regiment in 1867, serving under Yates in Company F, at the time of the battle.
|
|