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Post by herosrest on Apr 22, 2024 16:24:07 GMT -6
In my defence I should state that a four pack of Elvis Juice (Brewdog) which was in the fridge this morning is not, no longer there. It tastes of grapefruit and once the seratonin kicks in, well......
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Post by herosrest on Apr 28, 2024 4:32:36 GMT -6
walter H. Graves Irrigation Engineer, Crow Indian Reservation Annual report of the commisioner of Indian Affairs 1895 linkReservations in Montana. From the report of Inspector McCormick, dated July 29, 1895, it appears that under the superintendency of Walter H. Graves, engineer in charge, 34.03 miles of main ditch and 25.27 miles of laterals have been constructed on the Crow Reservation, covering 22,427 acres, at a total cost of $138,730.50. The inspector states that for durability, strength, and beauty of construction this work surpasses by far any that he has seen elsewhere. The history of irrigating the US is fascinating, and the Crow Tribe, Agency and it's funding, is quite fascinating and central to emergence of the states and nations being what they are today. Interestingly, another minor part was played by R.B. Marshal who visited in 1891, left us a battle icon, and went on to turn California into what it is today. Yup............ officially lateral irrigation of Little Bighorn Valley from its big bend on down to Crow Agency. Officially laterally irrigated........ What do you think that construction work on the visitor center is likely to discover in the ground beneath the old buildings? Scheduled to open July 2026. Oil.........................
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Post by herosrest on Apr 28, 2024 5:03:53 GMT -6
Anecdote - Battle Ridge BuildersIn 1885 the Crow Tribe was moved from the old Rosebud Agency to Crow Agency and immediately began tilling 165 approximately five-acre plots allotted to Indian families who tended grain and truck crops. Three years of crop failure, due to hail and drought, necessitated irrigation. By 1891 Reno Ditch, funded by the Tribe, was completed above Crow Agency from the Little Big Horn River and 4,500 acres were watered. The expanded farming allowed the Tribe to supply the Quartermaster of Fort Custer with hay and, after 1896, flour from the tribal grist mill. Though the fort was closed in 1898, flour continued to be the mainstay being sold to regional consumers. With the opening of the Bighorn Ditch and the tillage of additional allotted acres, the Tribe reached an economic stability based on agriculture and cattle raising that permitted the Government to suspend the general issuance of rations, including beef. By 1905 the first Crow Industrial Fair displayed the fruits of the Tribe's toils. Bighorn Ditch and the headgate stemmed from an agreement between the Office of Indian Affairs and the Crow Tribe. This agreement, incorporated into an article ratified by Congress on March 3, 1891, provided that the Crow Tribe cede part of their reservation and that funds be diverted to an irrigation system of dams, canals, ditches, and laterals in the Big. Horn, and Little Big Horn River valleys and the Pryor Creek valley as approved by the Secretary of the Interior. The Office of Indian Affairs contracted with William Graves immediately to prepare the plan and estimates. By August 1892 fifty Indian laborers and their horse teams were at work. Graves observed "...they do as good work as white men and take pride in the doing of it." By the summer of 1893, 12,300 acres were irrigated and $47,000 had been expended towards wages, a boost to the Tribe's economy. $75,000, set aside for management and maintenance, was used to instruct the Indians on managing the irrigation system as well as for repairs to the pioneer irrigation project, Reno Ditch. By 1897, the district largely was completed by a large force of Indian laborers under the direction of Graves. However, not until the completion of the Bighorn Ditch were all Indian families provided an irrigated allotment. Finally completed in the autumn of 1904, the ditch provided an additional 35,000 irrigated acres. The project, while aiding the Crow economy, also provided instruction in construction techniques and induced the Tribe to breed better draft horses. linkDo you think that a Crow stallion will ever win an English or Scottish, or Irish, or Welsh, Grand National race? link Wouldn't that be something! Parading Through History: Frederick E. Hoxie was director of the D'Arcy McNickle Center for the History of the American Indian at the Newberry Library. At the Newberry he was successful in obtaining funding from the National Endowment for the Humanities and several private foundations that made possible support for a vibrant intellectual community of scholars. He was a founding trustee of the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of the American Indian and was elected as a trustee of Amherst College.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 28, 2024 6:35:17 GMT -6
Work was continued on the Big Horn ditch on the Crow Reservation, and the results were very satisfactory, the head gate having been finished and the work on the ditch having progressed so far as to make practically 18 miles of the Big Horn Valley irrigable therefrom. The appropriation for 1902 was $100,000, just double the amount for the preceding year. The scope of the work was accordingly much extended, and expenditures were made on reservations that would not otherwise have been possible. Unfortunately, during the latter part of this fiscal year, the investigation of existing systems and the extension of the work on other reservations were seriously hindered by reason of the illness and subsequent resignation of Irrigation Inspector W. H. Graves. Several important projects therefore had to be suspended until a new inspector could be appointed and enter upon duty. Mr. W. H. Code was appointed, but did not begin work until after the close of the fiscal year. For the fiscal year 1903 the appropriation for irrigation was increased to $150,000, with provision for the employment of irrigation engineers, as in the two preceding years. books.google.co.uk/books?id=4vzwAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=walter+h.+graves+irrigation+engineer+crow+indian+reservation&source=bl&ots=UIGRDgheaI&sig=ACfU3U1gqJ9FCzq4dMuiIhKzkhHgtXlcVA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiRk4SrweSFAxVIQUEAHWa0BgA4ChDoAXoECAMQAw#v=onepage&q=walter%20h.%20graves%20irrigation%20engineer%20crow%20indian%20reservation&f=false
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Post by herosrest on Apr 28, 2024 7:57:58 GMT -6
In the first decade of the twentieth century, as the Old West became distantized in romantic populin culture, Eli S. Ricker (1842–1926) began interviewing those who had experienced it firsthand, to write a series about its last days, centered on conflict between Natives and outsiders. For years he traveled the northern Plains, gathering information on and off reservations but never wrote his book. The interviews are priceless sources of information about that time and place, offering more balanced perspectives on events than were accepted at the time. E.S. RickerRichard E. Jensen assembled Ricker’s interviews to shed light on events such as Lightning Creek, the Mormon cow incident, and the Washita massacre, with glimpses of everyday life at different agencies, though memoirs, snapshots of cattle drives, conflict with Natives, and construction of the UPR. In dealing the Greasy Grass hands, [Tablet 7} remarks Dr. Walter Q. Tucker whowas guided over the route of march down Reno Creek, by Henry Machlin; and helps point towards solvation of the battles inimitable inscrutability. George W. then helps broaden the canvas of realities buried beneath layers of battle cake link. Where precisely seven miles might be is entertaining since which what ever way this is considered it be at the divide, and a divide which was supported by the document printed in 1919, which was presented by Smith, to Lounsberry, at Bismarck on July 5th 1876, when Far West arrived there and the Mergenthaler fired up.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 28, 2024 8:10:26 GMT -6
It seems that Custer's men never crossed the river. We found trail going down in the river, but it seems that Custer got repulsed before he got across the river . . . we never found any trail of him on the other side of the river. The first men were found on the ridge, and on a little knoll was the Chief Trumpeter with three arrows in his head and one in his right shoulder. The next was Kellogg, the New York reporter, about 50 yards from the Chief Trumpeter who only had arrows in his body. [Then came] first a [single] horse and then there were ten or twelve horses and their riders. Most all of these men were mutilated and nearly all had arrows put in them.
Further up the ridge we found scattering soldiers and their horses. Thomas Tweed of L Troop was a young man that I enlisted with. He was cut up the crotch and his left leg thrown over his left shoulder and he had three arrows in his face, but was not scalped. They had not time to scalp all of these men for there [were] about 280 [sic] men that were killed on the ridge. There was not any horse with Tweed, but there was a horse that had been wounded and [still] alive not far from Tweed.
Further up the ridge and at the head of the ridge, Captain Benteen rode ahead and looking in the ravine, turned around and said to Major Reno, "Here is the whole Headquarters." [We found] part of C Troop and part of E Troop, besides General Custer, Captain T. Custer, Captain Keogh, Captain Calhoun, the brother-in-law of Custer, [and] Captain Yates. I am not certain of Yates. Lieutenant Sturgis's trousers were found but we did not find the body at that time. Custer's nephew about 18 years old. The list of troops with Custer are C, E, F, I [and] L. . . . Captain Keogh [and] Sturgis belonged to M Troop but were with E Troop when they were killed. Lieutenant DeRudio, an Italian officer [who] was Italian but held a commission in the 7th Cavalry, escaped from Custer's [command]. No doubt he got across the river because he came from the timber up to Reno's command on the 26th.
After we buried Custer's men we crossed the river where the Indian village had stood. We found two heads of men that were captured from Major Reno's command when Reno led his charge the evening of the 25th. I think they were captured on the 25th because we heard the powwow in the village. One of the heads was recognized to be [that] of [John E.] Armstrong, A Troop, 7th Cavalry. The head was identified by Captain Moylan of A Troop. This Armstrong belonged to Moylan's troop that was under Reno's command.
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Post by lakotadan on Apr 28, 2024 9:56:19 GMT -6
Hello herosrest!
Great research!
I would like to ask you some questions (and they relate to the "Forgotten ravine" thing of mine on another thread!). The first question is on the below referenced statement-
"Further up the ridge and at the head of the ridge, Captain Benteen rode ahead and [after] looking in the ravine, turned around and said to Major Reno, "Here is the whole Headquarters." [We found] part of C Troop and part of E Troop, besides General Custer, Captain T. Custer, Captain Keogh, Captain Calhoun, the brother-in-law of Custer, [and] Captain Yates. I am not certain of Yates. Lieutenant Sturgis's trousers were found but we did not find the body at that time. [Note: Sturgis was on of nearly two dozen Seventh Cavalry fatalities whose bodies were never found.] Custer's nephew [was killed and was] about 18 years old. The list of troops with Custer are C, E, F, I [and] L. . . . Captain Keogh [and] Sturgis belonged to M Troop but were with E Troop when they were killed."
Which ravine is he talking about???
The other question has to do with the topographical map of 1891 in one of your posts. Could you circle where you think the Deep ravine is located (so maybe I can use that as a further reference point?). I can't seem to find it on the map (maybe I need new glasses!).
Thank you so much.
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Post by wild on Apr 28, 2024 12:57:40 GMT -6
Hi Ian
"Hmmm... Those same Indians marched out and took on nearly a 1000 carbines at the Rosebud and would have took on Custer too if they got wind he was around. A village of that size did shift quickly enough after they defeated and corralled the 7th"
At the Rosebud the Indians had total freedom of movement,They were not caught by suprise as happened at the LBH in fact they had caught Crook [?] by surprise. The size of the village ment that they had to keep between Custer and said village and it would have been beyond their tactical ability to organise defensibly against such a threat'' Custer blew a stratigic winning oppertunity ie to pin the indians in position until Gibbon arrived.
Best Richard
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Post by johnson1941 on Apr 29, 2024 5:16:26 GMT -6
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Post by lakotadan on Apr 29, 2024 6:03:08 GMT -6
Hey johnson1941!
I appreciate you welcoming me back, and all is well here! I hope all is well with you and yours!
Now, the topographical map you have shown. Is that another topographical map from 1891? I know we went through that map before on the other thread.
With herosrest's map, it actually looks (because the way it was drawn in 1891) more like an aerial photograph type map!
Maybe on that map you can assist me in finding were the Deep ravine is (so I can use that as a reference point) for a further search of what you know I call the Forgotten ravine (yes my friend, I have got a "renewed" interest in it!!).
Thanks for the assist!
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 29, 2024 7:14:50 GMT -6
I have always found it difficult to accept that Custer kept his battalion commanders in the dark, at midday. Dear Maj. Reno, deployed, and, with the Ree scouts on his left, charged down the valley, driving the Indians with great ease for about two and a half miles. However, he soon saw that he was being drawn into some trap, as they would certainly fight harder as he neared their village, which was still standing. He could not see Custer or any other support, and at the same time the very earth seemed to grow Indians running at him in swarms from all directions. He (MAR) saw he must defend himself and gave up the mounted attack to Take possession of a front of woods which furnished, near its edge, a shelter for the horses, where he dismounted and fought them on foot, making headway through the woods. In the vicinity of the village, he faced odds of at least five to one, and the only hope was to get out of the woods, where he would have been surrounded. That is broadly how the attack developed and is given as nearly as possible in the mans own words, long before he was forced to react to vilification for interfering with the Bells' bliss - having sent the Captain off on an errand. There was no ditch. And try though I might, I really cannot see it in Oscar F. Long's map despite opinion otherwise. Onion Creek.... you've brought me to tears with that one. The ditch is a dry river loop bent to his will in fogment of figment at Chicago. I don't recall if his official report was read into evidence. Terry's certainly wasn't and in consequence, Pandora opened her box and what splendour leapt forth. Reno deployed with the scouts to his left and advanced down the valley. HR
The watershed is there, so there is a ditch. Agricultural practices attempt to contain it. Do you think they spent time channeling something that never ran water? Or something that was such low flow, there is no reason to be concerned. Go look at what they did and how much water it can handle.
Regards
BE
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 29, 2024 7:17:17 GMT -6
walter H. Graves Irrigation Engineer, Crow Indian Reservation Annual report of the commisioner of Indian Affairs 1895 linkReservations in Montana. From the report of Inspector McCormick, dated July 29, 1895, it appears that under the superintendency of Walter H. Graves, engineer in charge, 34.03 miles of main ditch and 25.27 miles of laterals have been constructed on the Crow Reservation, covering 22,427 acres, at a total cost of $138,730.50. The inspector states that for durability, strength, and beauty of construction this work surpasses by far any that he has seen elsewhere. The history of irrigating the US is fascinating, and the Crow Tribe, Agency and it's funding, is quite fascinating and central to emergence of the states and nations being what they are today. Interestingly, another minor part was played by R.B. Marshal who visited in 1891, left us a battle icon, and went on to turn California into what it is today. Yup............ officially lateral irrigation of Little Bighorn Valley from its big bend on down to Crow Agency. Officially laterally irrigated........ What do you think that construction work on the visitor center is likely to discover in the ground beneath the old buildings? Oil......................... HR
That is proof that water ran before and was to be brought under control.
Regards
BE
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 29, 2024 7:22:44 GMT -6
It seems that Custer's men never crossed the river. We found trail going down in the river, but it seems that Custer got repulsed before he got across the river . . . we never found any trail of him on the other side of the river. The first men were found on the ridge, and on a little knoll was the Chief Trumpeter with three arrows in his head and one in his right shoulder. The next was Kellogg, the New York reporter, about 50 yards from the Chief Trumpeter who only had arrows in his body. [Then came] first a [single] horse and then there were ten or twelve horses and their riders. Most all of these men were mutilated and nearly all had arrows put in them. Further up the ridge we found scattering soldiers and their horses. Thomas Tweed of L Troop was a young man that I enlisted with. He was cut up the crotch and his left leg thrown over his left shoulder and he had three arrows in his face, but was not scalped. They had not time to scalp all of these men for there [were] about 280 [sic] men that were killed on the ridge. There was not any horse with Tweed, but there was a horse that had been wounded and [still] alive not far from Tweed. Further up the ridge and at the head of the ridge, Captain Benteen rode ahead and looking in the ravine, turned around and said to Major Reno, "Here is the whole Headquarters." [We found] part of C Troop and part of E Troop, besides General Custer, Captain T. Custer, Captain Keogh, Captain Calhoun, the brother-in-law of Custer, [and] Captain Yates. I am not certain of Yates. Lieutenant Sturgis's trousers were found but we did not find the body at that time. Custer's nephew about 18 years old. The list of troops with Custer are C, E, F, I [and] L. . . . Captain Keogh [and] Sturgis belonged to M Troop but were with E Troop when they were killed. Lieutenant DeRudio, an Italian officer [who] was Italian but held a commission in the 7th Cavalry, escaped from Custer's [command]. No doubt he got across the river because he came from the timber up to Reno's command on the 26th. After we buried Custer's men we crossed the river where the Indian village had stood. We found two heads of men that were captured from Major Reno's command when Reno led his charge the evening of the 25th. I think they were captured on the 25th because we heard the powwow in the village. One of the heads was recognized to be [that] of [John E.] Armstrong, A Troop, 7th Cavalry. The head was identified by Captain Moylan of A Troop. This Armstrong belonged to Moylan's troop that was under Reno's command. HR
I don't think Custer ever considered crossing at MTF. He sent three companies straight across MTC, and they were to go north. He screened them and slowed Indians from crossing MTF. He then went north parallel to CIL. The problem was that there were enough Indians on the east side of the river to slow CIL.
Regards
BE
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Post by herosrest on Apr 29, 2024 8:28:49 GMT -6
You know that I see it the same but slightly differently and more in line with Charles King's idea but not that far apart until...... movements beyond the monument. I was thumbing through old posts from so far back that i'm wondering about wisdom teeth and a dentist from Atlanta who, it seems, owned Benteen's Colt .45 from the battle. Imagine that......... It makes me think of GK......... One of the members here, Mike Nunnally got to hold it. If Custer sent a battalion below, then, plain and simple he repeated the Washita tactics and as Owen Hale said almost immediately, Reno jumped the gun. Benteen then has a ton of explaining to do about why he turned back from....... LBH valley. Where the various maps show that he went. I've been at this too long, maybe. So, I go with King and of course, he knew Virling Hart and the rest of 5th Cav were in and out of the valley in '77. I've seen some of the specs and plans for the new VC and it strikes me, that it will be outstanding. Viewing platform roofside for sunny days.
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