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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 31, 2023 8:04:04 GMT -6
Dan, Once again it seems you are highlighting markers at the END of the trail. Look at the path the trail takes, and compare to an aerial view/map. The trail passing over your ravine is pretty much straight. The end of the trail is on the existing upper Deep Ravine Branch. Did they relocate/reshape the maker path? While anything is possible - I think the odds are VERY low that they took dirt from (the 1 and only 1 highest point) Weir's Hill, which as we all know by now is just 1700' below DeWolf marker, and relocated it the 3.3 miles to Deep ravine. It would even be unreasonable to think they took the dirt from Reno/Weir/Edgerly Peaks, which we also know are 1/2 mile closer to DR (we know "its 2500' from Weir's Hill to 1st Edgerly peak"). We do know lots happened when they put in the road and it should not be ignored...with little regard for maintaining battlefield integrity... “...construction of the two lane gravel-based roadway (twenty feet wide with five foot shoulders on each side) materially affected the original condition of the battlefield and possibly altered interpretive conclusions about the site” due to “the lack of period sensitivity regarding historic landscapes”
"Similiar construction seems to have demolished several hillocks that appeared on the 1891 topographic map of the field."But THAT all happened in 1938-1940 - after your aerial photo. Maybe they did something earlier to affect your ravine, army took over in 1930.
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 31, 2023 9:08:14 GMT -6
Hello my friend johnoson1941, Thanks for the pictures of the trail. So, I took your first picture and "double circled' a marker that appears outside the ravine. So it does appear that the marker trail continues on the other side of that ravine, just as it does over the forgotten ravine. Also, as I stated above in another post, it is my understanding that no markers were placed in the deep ravine. In the picture attached you can clearly see 2 markers in the ravine. Further, compare that "notch" where the 2 markers are in the ravine in your picture to one of the filled in "notches" (close to where 2 markers are shown - that would be the "notch" closest to the "bowl" feature) in the outline of the forgotten ravine picture (those 2 markers are circled in red) attached (also where the markers are now placed on top of the filled in ravine - they obviously didn't get the replacement of those markers exact!)). But the "notch" feature and 2 markers in the same area in both pictures (in the notch in one photo and on top of - or very close to- a obvious previous notch in the other photo) must be more than a coincidence (my opinion!). Oh well, interesting stuff. Evidently (whatever year it happened - but I still go with about 1935!) the ravine was filled in and it "materially affected the original condition of the battlefield". Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 31, 2023 9:34:07 GMT -6
Check out Google earth - pretty sure there is at least 1 marker in the joints of DR...Camp showed the markers too. There are 2 below the branch. There is 1 in a joint..and 1 past.. Still where camp showed them 115 years ago..
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 31, 2023 9:42:49 GMT -6
Always appreciated my friend,
We can keep discussing this interesting subject of the Forgotten Ravine for a very long time. Since the ravines previous existence has not been conclusively proven (as yet!) every statement can be countered with another statement.
It is fun to do and quite the learning expierence for me, but the bottom line is like rosebud has always stated "we need a core sample"!
That would probably be the only way to end this fun thread!
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 31, 2023 9:53:44 GMT -6
Find period pictures and maps - they make great evidence! Of course having of lots of primary statements to back you up would help! KEEP AT IT - If its out there - you'll find it!
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 31, 2023 16:52:14 GMT -6
So all my friends "out there",
As I stated previously I would keep the members informed of any correspondence with the National Park Service about the Forgotten Ravine.
Below is an email I sent, and the reply.
We will see what happens!
To the Acting Deputy Regional Director, Intermountain Region, National Park Service:
Hello Mr. Ireland,
As stated in an email I sent last week-
"Regarding my research that you forwarded to Mr. Dustin Sene (park superintendent at the Little Bighorn) I have not heard anything back as yet.
I was just wondering if my research is relevant and of interest or is it considered not valid and no action will be considered?"
Anyway, I do not have the email address for Mr. Sene. I have included new research and was wondering if you can forward it to Superintendent Sene? If not, can you give me the email address of the Superintendent so I can email him?
Thank you so much for your time and consideration, Dan De Rooy
Most recent research-
As stated previously- (in the Little Bighorn History Alliance forum-" Deep ravine and company E query" thread)-
“The fighting that occurred in the basin below Last Stand Hill is still controversial among scholars and researchers. Warrior accounts describe fierce fighting in the basin, and many early scholars argued that Southern Cheyenne Chief Lame White Man's charge occurred here against soldiers of Company E who had just come down to this ridge from Last Stand Hill. Modern scholars, however, place Lame White Man's charge against soldiers from Company C in the ridge below Calhoun Hill.
Northern Cheyenne oral histories describe soldiers riding down from the present National Cemetery into this basin: "Custer went into the center of a big basin below the monument, and the soldiers of the gray horse company (Company E) got off their horses and moved up afoot."
I highlighted “fierce fighting in the basin” above because that is important.
In previous posts I have explained how the forgotten ravine has a “basin” feature.
Are there any signs of “fierce fighting” in the basin (or close by to it)?
The answer is “yes” there is!
I have included a current Google earth view of the area close to the “basin” of the forgotten ravine (the ravine is marked in blue, the soldier markers circled in red, and another area circled in green).
There are 17 soldier markers shown in my red circle. Those markers shown in that circle are no more than 74 feet away from the closest part of the filled in ravine (basin or bowl included).
So, 17 known soldier markers close to the ravine and “basin” feature. For me, that is a definite sign of “fierce fighting”.
Now, how about the possibility (also described previously in this thread) that there were anywhere from 18 to 24 troopers killed in my circled “green” area? Also, the possibility that the area marked “H” on Maguire’s map (“many bodies found here” -and also previously discussed on this thread) is that same area that I circled in green.
I have included another picture of the area that I had previously explained (and how I believe I verified it) was the forgotten ravine (before it was filled in – and how some of the soldier markers shown in that picture are now “placed on top” of the filled in ravine). In the caption under that picture, it describes how Lame White Man attacked the troopers.
I also included the full picture shown above that caption (and another similar view picture that appears was taken some time after the first picture shown). There has been some discussion on this thread how the ravine shown in those pictures is not the forgotten ravine, but the deep ravine. However, the curve of the line of markers, the distance and view of the monument, and the fact that there are at least 2 markers in the ravine (circled in red) rules out (for me) the possibility of it being the deep ravine (because to my understanding there were no markers placed in the deep ravine – but of course I could always be wrong!).
So, 17 soldier markers that we know of. Maybe add (at a minimum) 18 other troopers whose (I believe) remains were tossed into the forgotten ravine and dirt kicked from the sides of that ravine to hastily bury them.
That is (at a minimum) 35 troopers killed in and around the forgotten ravine.
“Fierce fighting”. Yes, I would definitely think so! (attachements included).
And his reply-
Hi Mr. De Rooy,
I have copied Superintendent Sene on this email, so you have his address. I have also copied our new permanent Deputy Regional Director, Brian Carlstrom. Now that Mr. Carlstrom is in place, my acting assignment has ended and I will hand this correspondence over to him.
Best,
Jim
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Post by lakotadan on Nov 1, 2023 8:02:31 GMT -6
So my friends, some more correspondence from the NPS !
Dear Mr. De Rooy,
Thank you for expressing your interest in the Monument. I have forwarded your inquiry to our resource department, and they have confirmed that the information you provided is not valid. Therefore, no further action will be taken at this time.
Regards, Dustin
Dustin S. Sene Superintendent Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument P.O. BOX 39 Crow Agency, MT 59022
And my reply (hey my friends "If I am not trying, I am dying !)
Dustin S. Sene Superintendent Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument-
Sir,
Thank you so much for your email and forwarding it to your resource department.
Unfortunately (for me!) your research department has confirmed that my research in not valid.
Still, perhaps for their further consideration, I have attached some photographs below.
The first photo is a 1932 aerial photo of the area below Last Stand Hill and the geologic feature (that is outlined) I term the “Forgotten Ravine” (I also included a close up view of the area).
The other pictures show other aspects of the (I believe) now filled in ravine (probably filled in about 1935).
If you do not wish to forward this email to your resource department, I fully understand (I do not want to keep bothering you or your staff on the subject).
However, if you do forward it to your resource department, I am always available to answer any questions they may have on the subject.
Again, sir, thank you so much for your time and consideration in this matter.
With respect, Dan De Rooy
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Post by lakotadan on Nov 1, 2023 11:52:43 GMT -6
Hello all,
So more contact with the NPS!
Dan,
I have forwarded this to my resource department, if they find it necessary to pursue this, they will be in touch.
Regards,
DS
Dustin S. Sene Superintendent Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument P.O. BOX 39 Crow Agency, MT 59022
(I did a little research and found that the Superintendent forwarded the email to an archeologist of the NPS - so that is interesting! Anyway, the adventure is still continuing!).
My reply-
Sir,
Thank you very much!
With respect, Dan
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 14:50:14 GMT -6
So you didn’t look at surveyor Camp’s map which matches reality surprisingly well Re: markers? In deep ravine joints and crossing the deep ravine/branch etc?
And shows no hidden ravine?
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Post by lakotadan on Nov 1, 2023 14:59:28 GMT -6
Thanks johnson1941!
But maps could be incorrect, interpretations left to opinions, reasons for things that were drawn or said (even by "eyewitnesses") could be right or wrong or "off" by large distances (my opinion !).
Anyway, I am way past all of this stuff!
It is now up to an archaeologist at the National Park Service to make a decision on the validity of my research about the Forgotten Ravine.
Hopefully, he will find some "truth" to my research. If he doesn't, well at least it was my best try and I will move on !
The adventure still continues (for now !).
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 15:00:18 GMT -6
A map (while definitely not perfect) that matches reality is incorrect? In your opinion… Hmm.. Well good luck! Better send them some evidence.
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Post by lakotadan on Nov 1, 2023 15:07:20 GMT -6
I sent the NPS some evidence! The photos attached to my emails I sent to them.
Although you may not consider it enough evidence, I hope it is enough for someone to make some sort of logical determination.
I did the best I could do with the information I had at the time. I am sure the NPS is also aware of the same contradictory evidence that you have presented in your posts.
Like I previously stated, it is up to someone else now to make a determination on the evidence presented and my thoughts about the Forgotten Ravine.
I will let the members know of any decision made by the NPS.
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Post by lakotadan on Nov 1, 2023 17:41:08 GMT -6
So, just to clarify something to my friends "out there".
This Forgotten Ravine thing has been fun, interesting, educational, and quite (for me) a once in a lifetime expierence!
The mere fact that I am in contact with the National Park Service about my "Forgotten Ravine" thing is a "giant leap forward" for Dan !
If the National Park Service just totally disregards and disagrees with my research and states "no way" I am "totally wrong", that is O.K. with me!
I know I gave it my "best shot".
But, until I hear back from the NPS, "the adventure continues"!
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 19:35:57 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 19:41:05 GMT -6
Another...wow those ravine banks are steep - like vertical! And another area shot..
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