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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 28, 2023 8:04:57 GMT -6
Dan,
What I am tryng to show is that the blue highlights in the bottom photo /\ is the END of the marker trail...the upper Branch.
Your blue lines in your pictures (nice!) are higher up than the end of the trail.
Darn it - if only that old bottom photo was taken farther back - we can see if any markers/trail crossed it.
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 28, 2023 8:16:36 GMT -6
So my friend,
You are saying that the "End" of the marker trail ends at deep ravine and that is what you are trying to show?
Well, if the area shown in that old photo is supposed to be deep ravine, it certainly is not "wide" enough to be the deep ravine (my opinion).
I still go with "The second picture is the one you included of apporximately the same area (the third picture is a view of that area). Your picture shows the relationship of the area to the monument on LSH and is a good comparison for the last picture (the fourth picture shown) attached here. And by using a oomparison of the slight hills to the left of the monument in both of those pictures (taking into consideration the different views) it even more accurately shows the realationshiip between those two different pictures."
Keep trying to find old pictures for me of the area, and thank you! When is the NPS going to take a core sample? Probably never!
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 28, 2023 15:29:23 GMT -6
Dan, Deep Ravine is HUGE - the Branch is where the trail ends. The bodies were at the bend...
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 28, 2023 15:49:42 GMT -6
Thanks! Got it! I still think to take a picture from the deep ravine and include the markers (and monument) shown in my previous picture (picture #4-attached below again) from 2086 feet away would be very difficult (if not impossible). And the ravine shown in my picture is narrow. I think the telephoto lens was invented in 1891, and the photograph I had shown was probably taken before that time or before telephoto lenses were widely avaiable (but who knows, just some "fun facts"!). Anyway, I am working on something about zooming in on the origianl 1932 aerial photograph. But my computer skills are seriously lacking, so it may take some time to post! This is fun and interesting my friend, and your continued support and ideas are much appreciated! Attachments:
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 28, 2023 16:21:50 GMT -6
So, I have included the 1932 aerial photograph that started my path down the “yellow brick (Forgotten Ravine”) road". "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" is a quote from The Wizard of Oz. Ha, ha, ha, etc!! Have included that 1932 picture, the same picture with a markup of where that ravine was, a “close up” view of the Forgotten Ravine in that same picture, a Google earth view of the filled in ravine, and the same area as shown in the 1932 picture showing the now filled in ravine. They are just too close of a match to dismiss out of hand! I am confident that the Forgotten Ravine played a significant role in the battle of the Little Bighorn. All it would take is the NPS to do a couple of core samples! That probably won’t happen until I am “long gone”! The adventure continues!
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 28, 2023 16:35:05 GMT -6
So this is the ravine, yes? In orange - not blue? But it not this?
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 28, 2023 16:42:46 GMT -6
My friend,
No, not in orange. I believe that area is a "bad contrast" area in the black and white photograph and specifically in your blue photograph (looks like an upper "fork" at the start of the deep ravine).
The Forgotten Ravine is marked in blue (hey, did we already do this before?) in your photograph and does not show up in your picture because it is "cut off" in your picture (on the left hand side) and that blue color has a lot worse contrast than the black and white photographs that I included.
Onward!
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 28, 2023 16:45:50 GMT -6
Ah ok - yes we did! Thats why I am trying to nail it down! LOL!
I added another pic TO THAT POST - but I think you answered that it would nt be the same (in orange).
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 28, 2023 17:00:34 GMT -6
You know what is interesting, my friend. I just noticed why there is a "contrast" issue in that aerial photograph. Now, granted, I am no photographer! But I noticed that many of the ridges that are facing (more or less) East (probably more North-East) are dark. Perhaps the aircraft that took the aerial photogrraph took the picture later in the afternoon. The sun would be setting in the West, and shadows would be cast on the East facing ridges and slopes and make them appear dark (or darker). Maybe that is the contrast issue? Just a guess! I mean, what do I know about aerial photography! Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!!! Maybe they just watered the area and the water was running down the slopes. But I go with the sun setting thing! And I included the other picture you added to your post with my blue markup of where the Forgotten Ravine was (or my best guess!). Thanks! Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 29, 2023 5:28:32 GMT -6
Ok but once again you are now back to BELOW the marker trail / Branch...other times (Oct 26th) you were crossing it. PICK 1 spot and keep it consistent! Is THAT it - in blue - the right spot? Or this one?...
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 29, 2023 6:08:13 GMT -6
Good call on the markers my friend. I need new glasses and my cadillac (I mean cataract) is getting worse! So, I included your first two photographs with a new markup (and crossed out my incorrect placement on your first photo). Your third photograph will always be correct. That is a Google earth view of the filled in ravine. Although trying to figure that out on "side type" views of the area is a difficult thing and your great eyes seeing those markers in your pictures is a great help! The fourth photo attached is a cool view of the Forgotten Ravine. It shows it very well in relation to the markers. I have included that photo in previous posts. Thanks!
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 29, 2023 6:33:12 GMT -6
Ah better! Great eyes?!? I take off my glasses and ZOOM in! LOL!
Cheers - your notion is much clearer now!
on a totally unrelated note - every year my eyes seem to get a step or 2 BETTER - very cool!! Hope others have such luck!
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 29, 2023 7:22:35 GMT -6
There is a ZOOM feature on the computer? Who knew? Ha, ha, ha, etc! Hey my friend. I was thinking about this, and I feel that it is interesting and maybe relevant to the “bowl” or “basin” feature of the Forgotten Ravine. From a National Park Service statement- “The fighting that occurred in the basin below Last Stand Hill is still controversial among scholars and researchers. Warrior accounts describe fierce fighting in the basin, and many early scholars argued that Southern Cheyenne Chief Lame White Man's charge occurred here against soldiers of Company E who had just come down to this ridge from Last Stand Hill. Modern scholars, however, place Lame White Man's charge against soldiers from Company C in the ridge below Calhoun Hill. Northern Cheyenne oral histories describe soldiers riding down from the present National Cemetery into this basin: "Custer went into the center of a big basin below the monument, and the soldiers of the gray horse company (Company E) got off their horses and moved up afoot." So, Google measures the “bowl” or “basin” feature of the filled in Forgotten Ravine at about 150 feet in diameter (more or less). The “bowl” that Reno-Benteen used for defense was about 540 feet in diameter. Now, as shown on the Google earth views below, both areas have ravines and coulees all around them. Evidently Reno did not use any of those features for defense but used a “bowl” feature of the landscape. Could Custer have tried to do the same thing (possibly using Company E in the “bowl” of the Forgotten Ravine)? Thoughts, opinions (or is it just way too much "outside the box" thinking - maybe I need to stay "inside the box"- ha, ha, ha, etc!). Attachments:
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 30, 2023 11:36:08 GMT -6
Well, as rosebud foretold, I am the only one still talking about this! But that is cool! I like gathering my thoughts, writing them down, and “putting them out there”! So some more thoughts on that Forgotten Ravine. As stated previously- “The fighting that occurred in the basin below Last Stand Hill is still controversial among scholars and researchers. Warrior accounts describe fierce fighting in the basin, and many early scholars argued that Southern Cheyenne Chief Lame White Man's charge occurred here against soldiers of Company E who had just come down to this ridge from Last Stand Hill. Modern scholars, however, place Lame White Man's charge against soldiers from Company C in the ridge below Calhoun Hill. Northern Cheyenne oral histories describe soldiers riding down from the present National Cemetery into this basin: "Custer went into the center of a big basin below the monument, and the soldiers of the gray horse company (Company E) got off their horses and moved up afoot." I highlighted “fierce fighting in the basin” above because that is important. In previous posts I have explained how the forgotten ravine has a “basin” feature. Are there any signs of “fierce fighting” in the basin (or close by to it)? The answer is “yes” there is! I have included a current Google earth view of the area close to the “basin” of the forgotten ravine (the ravine is marked in blue, the soldier markers circled in red, and another area circled in green). There are 17 soldier markers shown in my red circle. Those markers shown in that circle are no more than 74 feet away from the closest part of the filled in ravine (basin or bowl included). So, 17 known soldier markers close to the ravine and “basin” feature. For me, that is a definite sign of “fierce fighting”. Now, how about the possibility (also described previously in this thread) that there were anywhere from 18 to 24 troopers killed in my circled “green” area? Also, the possibility that the area marked “H” on Maguire’s map (“many bodies found here” -and also previously discussed on this thread) is that same area that I circled in green. I have included another picture of the area that I had previously explained (and how I believe I verified it) was the forgotten ravine (before it was filled in – and how some of the soldier markers shown in that picture are now “placed on top” of the filled in ravine). In the caption under that picture, it describes how Lame White Man attacked the troopers. I also included the full picture shown above that caption (and another similar view picture that appears was taken some time after the first picture shown). There has been some discussion on this thread how the ravine shown in those pictures is not the forgotten ravine, but the deep ravine. However, the curve of the line of markers, the distance and view of the monument, and the fact that there are at least 2 markers in the ravine (circled in red) rules out (for me) the possibility of it being the deep ravine (because to my understanding there were no markers placed in the deep ravine – but of course I could always be wrong!). So, 17 soldier markers that we know of. Maybe add (at a minimum) 18 other troopers whose (I believe) remains were tossed into the forgotten ravine and dirt kicked from the sides of that ravine to hastily bury them. That is (at a minimum) 35 troopers killed in and around the forgotten ravine. “Fierce fighting”. Yes, I would definetly think so!
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 30, 2023 15:14:15 GMT -6
Thank you my friend rosebud, always a pleasure!
Well, I don't know what dirt from whatever construction was going on in the 1930's they used to fill the forgotten ravine but they did fill it!
As you always stated (and I agree) we need a core sample!
No reply back from my most recent email to the NPS. I don't think I will ever hear anything back!
But, oh well, I will probably read about my discovery in a NPS archaeological magazine or something and it will be attributed to somebody else! Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!
Just as long as "the truth" about the Forgotten Ravine (one way or the other) can be figured out, it is all good for me!
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