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Post by herosrest on Aug 13, 2023 15:44:53 GMT -6
Martin's Ridge is fine. Finer than fine but can we lock it down.
In terms of bluffs or steep rock faces, take a view upriver, from downriver of MTC. Almost a sheer cliff. That's just for arguments sake because Martin went back on 27th, when Benteen followed Custer's trail, and on the 28th when he cut straight across with the burials in mind.
Make no mistake, the initial and original impression of events came to Terry, from Benteen who managed to confuse him with Weir. Thomas Benton Weir.
Terry had a lot on his mind and despite erstwhile just sit back and duck as his staff tee'd up Reno and Benteen, he was an aggressive type left in the middle of his own immense WTF?
The valley fight was brief. Weapons were jamming after 8-10 rapid rounds which killed a huge number of tipi poles. Good Lord.....what do we do now? I'll take a company as escort, into the timber, and figure it out. Hope I don't upset the old hernia from..... God, where was was it that Averill charged and all but..... Captured Stuart?
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 13, 2023 17:00:30 GMT -6
You can lock it down. It’s confirmed by plenty of witnesses. Cliff faces near MTC? OK. But closer to Weir Hill? Indians got on those bluffs chasing Rees & to kill DeWolf & fight the retreat. The retreat made it up. The horses being pushed made it up. Indians were crossing the side of the bluffs. Wounded men and scouts made it up. Varnum moved across due to Indians on the left and to help wounded get on a horse. The command stopped on the side of the hill. Men went down for Hodgson a few times. Going down doesn’t seem a big deal for a couple guys, 1 on foot, running for their lives. apparently there was some Buffalo trail in the area too cause Thompson mentions using it. Exactly where they came down? Hmmm. They did do a bit o running and hiding and moving up and down stream. Least we know MTC was nearer the lower end of the village, not the middle where he ended up, after 1st seeing a guidon from Reno coporal at the upper end. Huh - Maybe its time to look for a biuffalo trail/ ford in the middle of the village. Varnum “Immediately* on the other bank of the stream is a very high bluff that went up probably, I should judge one-third of the way as I remember it now, and I know that the horses were pretty well played out. They were all panting and climbing that perfectly steep hill they could hardly make it. A. I don’t remember what time I got on top of the hill. I stopped on the side of the hill awhile with the wounded men and whether I got up with the head or rear of the column, I don’t recollect. Q. At the time you stopped on the side of the hill was there any halt of the command or did it go past you? A. The command stopped there and I am pretty certain it was Major Reno said that place on the side hill was no place to form at, we had better go to the top of the hill.” *note once again where the river is? Right against the bluffs. Attachments:
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Post by noggy on Aug 14, 2023 1:25:45 GMT -6
Kanipe is one source I'd be cautious with.
This is a great thread, btw!
Noggy
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 14, 2023 5:01:10 GMT -6
Yep - Curly too, at least after a point. And Martin "evolves" as HR mentioned.
Then you read this from Camp: "His {Martin's} description of route agrees with Curley and Knipe exactly."
And you have hope!
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Post by shan on Aug 14, 2023 5:40:26 GMT -6
I think Freds sugestion that the valley fight may have lasted as long as 48 minutes is stretching it a bit. I haven't read his book as yet but how he can be so prcise about the number of minutes amazes me? On the other hand, I think that somevof the other sugestions which talk about 20 ~~ 25 minutes are under playing it, maybe some of those suggesting such a short stay are an attempt to demonize Reno by those that think hime to blame.
It takes time to dismount and arrange yourselves out into a skirmish line, time to hand your horses over to the horse holders, time to prepare to fire at the enemy, and, if we're to believe theory that the skirmish line then advanced a further 100 yards to take up a new postion, time to do that as well, and I haven't even got the troops back into the woods as yet For my own part I can't be sure how long they spent down there, but I'd guess it may have been closer to 40~~45 minutes.
On a different matter, I've just been reading Red Bears account in the Astonisher ~ I have to say the Arickras accounts are a much easier read over there, now I don't know whether they tidy things up or not, but I suspect they do, anyway, in that account he talks about seeing two Sioux men driving the ponies down the river, presumingly on the East bank, and then goes onto to relate how the scouts gave chase in order to get the ponies.Its only a minor difference, but then as we all know, we thrieve on minor differences on these boards, eat them up for brea dinner and lunch, or whether order that should be.
Minor question or not, the question I'm asking myself is this, did they see this the moment they crossed the river? If so, then this maybe the reason they took of well ahead of the soldier, plus, it would indicate that they had managed to round up the ponies and were beginning to drive them back sooner that we thought. Oh dear, why should it matter so much?
Shan
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 14, 2023 6:30:05 GMT -6
Ha it matters cause it fun! Like the ultimate detective game! I find more descrepencies or questions in timing then I do with locations. Actually surprised how much of all this agrees though - IF YOU START WITH A GOOD NOTION so you can understand what you are reading. I think that's what Fred was getting at and why he thought timing was key. But he tended to gloss over differences or attempted to make things work when they kinda didn't. Or try to explain something when he actually just got the quote wrong and it was fine. My thing - do not trust any one! Too many modern investigators want to put THEIR OPINIONS & take/notions into original 'testimony' [it can be maddening]. Astonisher does it. Harper. Donahue. Hunt. Bruce whatever. Hammer. Do your research using primary sources as much as possible. Then come discuss! On to Red Bear...
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 14, 2023 7:19:07 GMT -6
Another clue to time is the amount of ammo they shot off, one company had to take men off the line to dig into their reserves in their saddle bags. I recall that each trooper had 100 rounds, 50 on him, 50 in their saddle, so how long would it take to fire off 50 rounds with a single shot rifle.
Ian
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 14, 2023 10:00:46 GMT -6
shan, Check this out - its a timeline from Gray. Maybe not correct, but it may help make more sense of who was doing what. I was checking out Black Fox vs Curley vs Crows etc. Little Bighorn Timeline: The Afternoon of June 25, 1876. lbha.org/?cat=47Unfortuantely he doesnt mention Red Bear till 4pm-ish, but stuff like this is in there... "3:10: Pony captors leave the Reno charge to capture Sioux herd. 2nd Lieutenant Luther Hare (left) (Custer in ’76, p. 65) said he and the Rees rode down the valley while Reno was watering the horses (i.e., crossing river?) and the Rees took off from him about a mile down river. Private William Jackson (William Jackson, William Jackson, Indian Scout: His True Story Told by His Friend,, p.135) said scouts rode out ahead of Reno and turned straight down valley." More good stuff from Hare page 65 of Custer in '76... "Before this Custer had ordered the scouts ahead but they refused to go and Custer ordered them to be dismounted and their horses taken from them. Gerard explained matters to the Rees and so they rode out ahead of Reno and reached Ford A about 1/2 mile ahead of them. At the ford the scouts watered and pulled out just as Reno and his battalion came up." "While Reno was watering, Hare went on down valley with the scouts, and about 1/2 way (1 mile) down to skirmish line some of the Rees took after a herd of Sioux ponies. An Indian with these ponies turned and fired on the Rees but they chased him and captured some of the ponies and ran them off. The remainder of the Rees went on down and went into timber after Reno and his men did and that they forded the river a long way farther downstream than Reno's men did. He thinks about half way between timber and where Reno retreated across. Says he remembers seeing the Rees after he got to top of hill on retreat." Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 14, 2023 10:19:31 GMT -6
LOVE to know where Gray got this from... Nonsense DeRudio was QUITE clear where he saw Custer...(and numerous others confirm it)...it was NOT at Edgerly Peaks DeRudio, RCOI 1879 A. I did not see any part of the column of General Custer. The only observation I made was while I was in the woods. General Custer, Lieut. Cook and another man I could not recognize came to the highest point of the bluff and waved their hats and made motions like they were cheering and pretty soon disappeared. I judge by that that probably his column was behind the bluff. ... Q. Where was that? A. It was on the highest point on the right bank of the creek just below where Dr. DeWolf was killed.
Q. About how far do you think it was from the point on the bluff occupied by Maj. Reno? A. I think it could not have been more than 5 or 600 yards. It was a higher point but lower down on the river. {Camp says it is 1700' from Reno retreat to Wier Hill} Q. Did you see the place generally known as the point where Capt. Weir went to? A. Yes Sir I saw it . Q. Was General Custer on that point? A. No, on one nearer the river and the highest point on that side. Where I saw General Custer the river comes right under the bluff. The bluff comes in very narrow there hardly wide enough for a horse to stand on in say opinion this map is not correct as to this line of bluffs. Herendeen RCOI Q) What is the character of the country towards “B”? A) I claim that what is called Weir’s Hill is the highest point on the ridge in that vicinity. Q) That circular mark is to indicate the position Major Reno took. How far from there can you see the country towards “B”? A) To that highest point, Weir’s Hill, probably half a mile down.
See how these guys like Gray screw up? TOTALLY missed "Weir HILL". So WEIRD! This is how myths get started and truth denounced and cascading errors build as to what happened where. And timelines messed up. Attachments:
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Post by herosrest on Aug 14, 2023 10:33:20 GMT -6
The shorter engagement can demonize Reno if so desired, and be seen as that by Renoholics which immediately boosts bun sales. Taking events as isolated tidbits simply focuses spotlights and a lot gets spotted but it is correlations which unfurl the colors. When Reno got here and did that (He did what...... ) Custer was doing this and that, here..... and so on, and so forth. The shorter engagement in the valley, 8 - 10 rounds for some Company A men, indicates a timing aspect for Custer's situation which is not a part of very broadly biased modern thinking about double D wobble effect further downriver. Reno dismounted as Custer advanced on MTC. You can point at a map.Reno was here, Custer was there. We have a reasonable idea how the next 10 minutes unfolded east of the river with some sort of contact oo ridges to the north (rer and flank) message being sent off; Ford B being scoped; a movement north onto NC, or DC, GGH and then Bouyer observing setback in the valley and waving his hat at the Custers of in the distance. He then rode down river to them with intel on the valley fight. This phase of things is convoluted to hell and back these days with a hunt for elk's teeth dresses far farther downriver and the wishful thinking that hostage taking could win the day. The Washita fifty-five, I think it was; were not the reason that Custer avoided further action and extricated his ten companies from the attack. He fainted at camps further down river and the opposition gathered against him on Black Kettle, fractured to go back and look to their own as night fell. Custer about faced and extricated his force. The hostages were Cheyenne of a village he had overrun, destroyed and driven away combatants. While he remained at BK's camp, warriors from anywhere else could flock against 7th Cavalry but as soon as he threatened the next camp along the river, it was every tribe for itself. That's how it seems to me. The outlline of &th Cavalry advanced on Deep Coulee as Bouyer arrived with news of setback in the valley is remarkably sensible to me. What was not sensible in 1905/6 was Upshaw's translation of White Man Runs Him. What was and remains entirely ludicrous is John S. Gray's timeline with Custer startinf down from WP two minutes before Reno retreated. DeWolf was killed some distance north of Reno and it seems that Company M went up the bluffs in the area of the doctor. Reno's retreat was not orderley, perhaps because he had lost him, and was broken by the time it jammed up trying to get out of the water onto the east bank. There were stragglers all along the river making their up to the heights. It was a cluster shambles which would have been massacred had the Indians not decided to go elsewhere. Hell.................. where'd they go?
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Post by herosrest on Aug 14, 2023 10:40:40 GMT -6
Lazy White Bull (Minniconjou) gives the other side of the scout pony stealing as news arrived in the village. The first shots of the soldiers went through the teepees, so no one was hurt, but Three Bears was killed down by where White Bull was.5 When he [White Bull] heard the man across the river, the man had his boy with him and the boy was killed, and this was about three miles from the camp. The boy's name was Deeds [AKA Trouble or Big Trouble]. Brown Arse [AKA Brown Back or Brown Ass] was the boy's father.6 [Note: Drags The Rope said Brown Back was Deed's older brother, not his father.] After Three Bears was shot, Dog with Horns was shot.I've lifted it straight out of Astonisher but it gives a bit of the other side as the fighting erupted. astonisher.com/archives/museum/white_bull_little_big_horn.html
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 14, 2023 10:41:09 GMT -6
Yep especially cause Custer wasnt even there! So he totally messed THAT up - he should have checked the RCOI testimony better. Being off over 1/2 mile can really screw you up and anything you feel is related to it; as well as knowing just where all this stuff actually took place. Thank God the witnesses tell us! Yep - its 1700 ft from that retreat line to Weir Hill, which is just over 1/2 mile from the Corral. So that would place DeWolf +/-1100' from reno. Weir (Edgerly w/D actually) advanced to 'around 1/2 mile BELOW ‘the highest point’ aka Weir HILL (per Benteen, Hare etc), and 'about 1.5 mile below RBDS per Edgerly, and Camp says it was 2500' from Weir Hill to the 1st Edgerly /RENO/Weir peak. Note how this all perfectly gells. Attachments:
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Post by herosrest on Aug 14, 2023 10:44:02 GMT -6
That isn't a routing issue, it is pure and simple wTF was going on stuff..... Gray was a serious researcher but his timing study stuff was a toy he was learning to use and didn't. These don't jibe.... throw one away.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 14, 2023 11:01:10 GMT -6
Do enlighten us The Curtis quandry became set in thinking about the way things happened, and that suited some of the partisan rivalries. Giving the Reno action a longer duration leaves students looking for an hour and more which is fiction. It was a quick, dirty and violent assault on Custer's companies. link
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Post by herosrest on Aug 14, 2023 11:08:46 GMT -6
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