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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 8, 2023 15:36:09 GMT -6
As far as Soldier's "Little Dip"...couldn’t be all that far along the bluffs…since the Rees ran the horses up somewhere between Weir Hill & Reno Corral, & the stragglers Soldier ran into were near/south of Weir Hill. Martin ran into these C troop guys also - after coming back up cedar coulee with Custer's message heading back to Benteen.
Once we understand that all these horses getting played out and falling behind seemed to happen because of the gallop up to the bluffs/ridge from Reno creek, we understand how/why/where most of this dismounted trooper stuff happened - in that Reno Corral/retreat -> Weir Hill -> South Coulee area.
"I, White Eagle, and Bull followed Custer and five companies. We came upon a white soldier whose horse had given out, and he was kicking the horse and striking him with his fist and saying "Me go Custer. Me go Custer." As we went up a little dip we looked over and saw the valley full of Sioux tepees, and I would estimate that there were eight or nine big circles. The first (Hunkpapa) camp was breaking up. If I had had a good horse, I probably would have kept up to Custer and been killed with him. I soon came across a second soldier whose horse was down, overcome by heat, and he could not get him up and was swearing and calling him a son of a bitch and kicking him.
Just after this I saw Ree scouts who had captured horses come up the ridge and Strikes Two said: "Leader, I will give you this spotted horse that is leading the herd." Where they came up the river ran right along the foot of the bluff."
Strikes 2 re:Camp 1910 "How long before battle began did Rees capture Sioux horses? Quite a while. How far was it from place ran them up the bluffs to Reno corral? Just about where Reno retreated up says Strikes Two."
Martin "I kept on up the north and south coulee and soon met a mounted man whom I recognized as one of C troop, but whose name I did not know."
"Met Boston Custer half way between medium coulee and Weir Hill. Boston asked me where Custer was and if he had been attacked and I said no. Soon after met Boston I met the two men."
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Post by herosrest on Aug 10, 2023 12:09:37 GMT -6
I muddled through the Ree Narratives a first time and returned to them over a period of time. I concluded they came up the bluffs lower than is commonly accepted and one reason is the river bend which cuts into the bluff. From the Ree accounts, they crossed the river as the battalion dismounted and deployed to fight on foot and were further down river that the skirmish line to reach the pony herds. They went up the bluffs rather than cross back over it. So figuring this out took to period maps and the first is really Wilson's from 1879. link and modern aerial stuff Duck. The meanders which cut deep into the heights wera a little further ownriver withe 'S' feature bend on the old Pitsch place where the creek kicks south. That's the area the scouts crossed to gain further downriver. So they crossed the stolen herd lower than that part of the river. We have an idea of the 1879 river flow and broad flat east of the river beyond Garryowen. The scouts moved downriver beyond GO. Long story short, they went up the bluffs where Tompson came down. Thompson did his death defying leap to close distance with Watson if you accept his stuff. There is some video of the area terrain made by Gerry Schulz link. Polfdesign. My thinking is the PS climbed into the curve through which the battle road snakes over Weir. Easy route with a bunch of led or driver horses. It's conjecture but I don't believe those scouts took a difficult ride up and the razor back ridges and deep gullies are perxactly difficult into fatal with Black Moon on your six. Regards.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 10, 2023 12:34:24 GMT -6
I looked at it from the point of Curtis's information for the route and it was good for me with companies moving downd the ridgeline of middle and western. I played it around and it works as many theories do. My main interest was the Ree accounts, for example Little Sioux and making some sense of it and them meeting Stab, and getting shot at by troops.
Done.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 10, 2023 13:46:15 GMT -6
Hard to argue with "Just about where Reno retreated up says Strikes Two." We do know exactly where that is - no matter where the river actually was (though it ran right up against the bluffs at the same spot - as Wilson also shows). Don't forget Curtis' route map is suspect, at least the southern part is off, and that his scouts went up and down those bluffs 2x - once with Custer from the east and again with Benteen from near ford A. (and they seem to have given different narratives, depending who asked). For instance Curtis' point 2 is a joke - about the lowest point on those bluffs, and too far south from where Custer hit them (but maybe not Benteen and pack train, who didn't follow Custer's trail). Defintiely it is NOT where he was seen by DeRudio et al. Agreed that the horses were ran up near where Thompson came down. He barely cleared the Weir Hill-SSH ridge/saddle, if he did at all. "I looked ahead and saw Watson but was unable to overtake him, as slow as he was going. He suddenly turned aside from the trail as if he wished to avoid some threatening danger. While I was wondering what it could be, I saw a small party of Indians about thirty in number driving a small bunch of ponies and mules, coming towards us..."
"...When I had nearly gained the top of the hill, I saw five Sioux Indians. ...With five I could not cope and within the last few moments a few more Indians had gained the trail ahead of me, and to make my way down the face of the bluff I knew was nearly impossible as the Indians were climbing up to gain the trail. Looking to my right I saw a ravine and at the bottom of it a small clump of wild cherry bushes..."The scouts (Soldier, Stabbed White Eagle...) coming north late mention seeing Custer's trail through the grass 'off to the east' in that Thompson/Watson Weir Hill/Reno retreat area of the bluffs... " ...At the ridge they began to see signs of Custer’s march off to the east. They could see the trails through the grass. Here they found a white soldier trying to get his horse up, he was cursing and swearing, pounding his horse’s head with his fists and..." Scouts are indeed interesting muddling through - as you say!... "Then all four of the scouts rode through the timber toward the river to kill them. But just at this point they saw across the river on the flat a large herd of about two hundred Dakota horses in the sage brush, so they stopped pursuing the women and children and started after the horses. Little Sioux had no trouble at either bank, he rode his horse swimming. On the opposite side there was-much sage brush and willows and the four all crossed together. They started to head the horses upstream. Red Star rode farthest to the left, then Boy Chief, then Strikes Two, and last of all Little Sioux. While they were driving the horses he first saw the tepees of the Dakotas, three-quarters of a mile away across the river, just the tops of the poles and very many of them. They had ridden farther ahead than the battle line of the soldiers, that is, farther downstream in order to head off and drive the horses back to where they could get them away from the Dakotas. They had hardly headed the horses before the Dakotas came across the river from the village where he had seen the tops of the tepees and from there they carried on a running fight up the valley for over a mile with the pursuing Dakotas chasing and firing at them. They reached and crossed the high bluff, at which point was the hardest fighting, and the Dakotas chased them back on the trail seven or eight miles...
...They crossed the ridge because it curved in front of them and they did not turn out of their course. Where they crossed the ridge, was a mile below the first crossing and about three-quarters of a mile from the second crossing."But a picture is worth...ahhh.... Attachments:
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Post by herosrest on Aug 11, 2023 11:49:48 GMT -6
As given, I unstand the general idea of the PS arriving to the bluffs in the RBDF area but could not see sense in it despite Strikes Two. Thompson was below Weir Peak on an easy route to the flat. There is a trail visible on modern aerial mapping. For a while I played around with Little's Sioux's crossing places information and thought i'd nailed it but of course he is referencing his crossing place to the east bank. I'm reaching back into stuff from old - if you're interested then play on or ignore if happy with your ideas. There were scouts ahead of the advance down the valley on both flanks and front which was Bloody Knife. He returned to the advancing line with three stolen ponies and that simply has to be the halt. There's no other way it happened. 'Reno..... Heap, heap, heap Dakota!'. BK handed off his capture to the Rees. Therefore they are on the dismount and various of the narratives confirm it. As Reno's opening stuff unfolded, the East bank pony stealers crossed the river to the east flat and moved DOWN river to the Sioux pony herd. Where that eventually led me, was a line of distance back from ford B, to find the scout's crossing place somewhere at about 1.75 miles upriver on the old Pitsch loops. The Pitsch loops which today are west of the river, were east of it until the 1970s and battle artifacts found there then either belong to another party of scouts who took cover in there after crossing during the retreat, or are an event lost to history. The underlying premise is the cavalry skirmishing on the Garryoen loop and the scouts progressing downriver beyond the skirmishline on the east bank flat. The way out is up the easy route of the flats way below WP and then running through and over the curve of of the Weir Hills ridge from downriver (west) and what is loosely called Bouyer's Bluff. If you feel that Camp had all the answers, that is unfortunately not so. His knowledge evolved as he dug deeper with his subjects, when he could. An important example is Peter Thompson who was being seriously dismissed because 'ford' was taken to be Ford B, where Camp eventually discovered that Thompson found his own ford upriver - Thompson's ford where he had a firefight with............ well...... could it possibly have been White Cow Bull. The WCB interview by Miller was 1938 so it is highly unlikely that Thompson ever knew anything of that specific story. What do you think? Here is Bruce's Brown's take on Strike Two's account in the Ree Narratives. Camp interviewed him as well. He also helps tie scout leader Stab on Custer's column with a message, tells of the attempt to rescue their buddies trapped on the river flat, and seeing the Custer fight to the north. The party of scouts included Cross, and he was seen returning along the bluffs in that party of scouts, by one of the corporals of Company D, as Edgerley led them out after Weir. Their is a lot of stuff in the Arikara accounts which is mismanaged and not properley glued together. A further thought is confusions with soldiers shooting at scouts coming up the bluffs because it happened several times or one instance has been transplated into accounts to seem like several. They are hard work but a spider's web of connections is there. The corporal was Wiley. Carrying Edgerley's guidon. Boy Chief was amongst the scouts on the bluff and went back down to try and recue his brother who was with Half Yellow Face and the half dozen scouts trapped in the timber.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 11, 2023 14:36:39 GMT -6
Of course I am interested. I try not to ignore anything - but please post something besides your opinions! I have been asking for supporting comments from primary witnesses...but have not seen anything. (other than a bit o' Curtis -1x or 2x or 3x removed) But Curtis' take is sketchy, and shown to be quite contrary even by those he supposededly was listening to - and worse - the 1st hand info is incomplete. Are you saying Thompson ran into Rees pushing horses below Weir Point? Says WHO? (Whom?) Not Thompson. Not the Rees. That trail is visible - so how do we know its his? In the mean time we DO KNOW where he saw the scouts with pushed horses, w/no doubt. And where those scouts saw him - THEY TELL US. In numerous accounts which all agree. And PT said he hadnt even made it to the top of the hill where he was left behind when he saw the scouts and the 5 Sioux. There is nothing wrong with where the river was, or where the highest point was, or where the horses were pushed up. Unfortunately that link to Strikes Two isn't very clear on where they pushed the horses up. While other interview he tells us - just 'about where Reno retreated', and others said where 'the river ran up against the bluffs, and 'a mile below the 1st crossing', etc., its marked on a map with the Rees who were there, right about where/how they described, AND ALL AGREE! So that MUST BE where they got shot at. MUST BE where they saw Thompson. Must be where Thompson saw them. Must be where he tried to make it up the hill, so where they all saw the 5 Sioux, etc etc. Here's Little Sioux - explaining part of all that, including the mile+ long running fight explaining just why they went up the bluffs where they did, and the crossings... (hmmm…did you miss the mile+ long running fight??) www.astonisher.com/archives/museum/little_sioux_big_horn.htmlPretty much all the accounts mention BK turning over his horses, and that’s fine. Some ignored him, some didn’t. They said they found him by the river. You SEEM to want to ignore or discount or explain away all these primary witnesses, or select parts there-of, who often enough described very distinctly where they were and when, and who they saw and what they did - and in so many cases actually all agree. THEY TELL US where they came up. THEY tell us where they crossed the river, and the ridge and why. THEY tell us who they saw with their downed horses and where. THEY tell us how they were fighting for a mile from where they were above the skirmish line, where they retreated, where they hid in the brush. Not always clear of course, but there's enough once you find the main points like 'we pushed horses up about where Reno retreated'. Thompson et. al. fell behind just where they saw the village and Custer cheer...right about where he saw the horse pushers, where he saw the Sioux, before 'he gained the top of the hill'....not hard to know where that is now. My take is, I am not getting why you discount so much of what THEY say, or assume they are wrong, or maybe mis-interpreted. You must have such specific info available!?! At the least what did "they" say to help explain why/how you interpret what it is they did say your way? SO again - please post some quotes from who/where are you getting your info to back up your take. It'll be very interesting! And helpful I am sure. Anyway - Young. Hawk is interesting read. Talks about where BK, Isiah and LB were killed, they retreated (left of Reno), how the Sioux headed them off, , hiding in the brush, helping the other scouts Goose and White Swan up, etc. Even confirms the marking where Little Brave died on the map above. contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/p15999coll31/id/57168/rec/307
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 11, 2023 16:42:20 GMT -6
Ha - there's the problem! You are thinking too much about why they shouldn't have done just what they all said they did, or what YOU THINK YOU would have done. Instead you should believe more of what they ALL are telling you! Same with Custer 'heading away from the valley' in Cedar. Might not make sense to YOU NOW, when it is just too bad that it happened that way - he screwed up! (even Curley says so - Custer didn't ask him or Bouyer) "....They had hardly headed the horses before the Dakotas came across the river from the village where he had seen the tops of the tepees and from there they carried on a running fight up the valley for over a mile with the pursuing Dakotas chasing and firing at them. They reached and crossed the high bluff, at which point was the hardest fighting,..." Sometimes stuff just happens.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 11, 2023 18:23:04 GMT -6
There isn't a problem at all but an inverse. Cedar Coulee to Luce Ride or Ridge and East Ridge is a progression. It's a linear one, progressing further and further from a stated objective to cross and capture the village. That is how the army had been conducting campaigns against the Indians - destroying their property and transport.
So, my, my, in 1928, Joe Blummer found evidence of maybe a skirmish line up on ridges north of MTC. That's 1928. I looked in to do type fashion for reference anywhere prior to 1928, which included Cedar Coulee. I never did find that. I did find stuff about the monument on Reno Hill which was erected in 1930ish. Prior to that there were the 1908 unknown route, Godfrey's 1892 Gall derived route, and Curtis's route. If you are travelling to Reno Hill from the Stone House without a specific reason to go to the mouth of Deep Coulee and Medicine Tail Ck. then why would you. You go to Calhoun and just continue a little south of east along the NC-Lece axis into Cedar Coulee.
Riding from the bluffs, Custer's stated intention was to capture the village after making a crossing of the river. That's from someone with him when it was said on the bluffs, who survived the battle and testified at Chicago. So there is absolutely no reason to use Cedar Coulee. It is dumb to ride the extra distance away from where you want to go.
I did have some issues understanding how Strikes Two knew where the pack train entrenched and Reno fought on the hill, as his party of scouts left marching east down Reno Ck. before and as the siege got underway. But, is that really worth bothering over? I don't think it is.
Custer intended to cross the river and capture the camp. So, Dispel Martin? The initial focus therefore was a crossing, and troops went towards one and halted and dismounted, per White Shield, before the flow of events progressed into a move away from the river.
The map with the scouts data - have you got its date?
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Post by herosrest on Aug 11, 2023 18:55:47 GMT -6
The retreating scouts passed Company D on the bluffs as Edgerley followed Weir. Those scouts then went for a drink of water and remained with the captured herd until the siege when they bugged out - unable to move to Reno Hill.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 11, 2023 19:19:31 GMT -6
Camp Interview w/Rees Map: 8/24/09 Again you are asking why Custer did what he did. Good luck! {you do know he got massacred right?} Weir Hill was a well-known location in 1879, & South / Cedar coulee the route that Camp knew all about at least by circa 1908 with the RCOI, Martin, Kanipe, Curley, hostiles, the Crow scouts...not sure how you missed it. Camp goes about getting the info, comparing evidence from witnesses to see vs. the Godfrey/Gall route, Curtis story, etc. Unfortunately he never wrote his book. I think we are lucky as so much of this stuff is now digitized! Herendeen specifcally says that south coulee was “nice traveling” to MTC. It is the route he says would have took. Custer took it. “I know that country and from the point we called Weir’s Hill, there is a sort of swale runs down and it is nice traveling to the creek that runs in there…I think they would come to the river to get around easy. There was a swale that led to the creek and then they could follow the creek down.“ Once in MTC heading towards the ford, supposedly Bouyer met Custer and told him all about Reno (or as Curtis says - he already knew). Why would he try to then capture a village he finally realized once he saw it from MTC was HUGE?? When he knew that Reno was whipped? So they move north maybe in 2 groups - 1 on the flats, 1 up to the eas)…per Martin, Standing Bear, et. al. 2 soldiers killed near the ford does not an attack make. Benteen coming quick? He hoped. I dont like to speculate about "why" he did what he did, prefer to just let those there tell us. bluff timing Herendeen “On the way up the bluff we came upon a dead Sioux, whose gun lay beside him with a cartridge stuck fast in it. We did not stop, but as we neared the top of the bluff I met Billy Cross coming down.” "When we got to the top of the bluff, we met Reno's advance toward Custer just as they stopped and fell back" "When I got out of the timber and got up to Reno on the bluff, White Swan and Half Yellow Face were already there, having gone up in Reno retreat…"Edgerly went a few hundred yards from the Corral, then down to the right like/near Custer's route, and circled around back to the bluffs and the peaks. Can you be more specific on which “retreating scouts” they ran into? Who and where? Who said what? Attachments:
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Post by herosrest on Aug 12, 2023 0:23:05 GMT -6
I've hunted up an online TAN - and link into stuff about Boy Chief here. He went back down to see if he could get his brother out with Little Hawk and the other refugees on the east flat. He went down and came back up. Wounded horse. Edgerley's troop shooting up scouts. Little Hawks flag waving..... There were two trips up from the flat by a few of the scouts. I'm rushing this morning and will come back later. Two trips up the bluffs by Boy Chief and a rescue attempt of those trapped intimber below including two of the Crows. WS and HYF.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 12, 2023 6:20:07 GMT -6
re: Boy Chief & Red Bear, and shootings "Six of the scouts turned off to the right sharply, where the Dakota horses were by the timber. Boy Chief and Red Star were ahead, then followed Strikes Two, Black Fox, Little Sioux and One Feather....Bloody Knife was far ahead and he brought back three horses…calling out: “Someone take these horses back to the hill. One of them is for me.” Red Bear did not see Bloody Knife because of the dust...
{Red Bear} shot the Dakota and he fell from his horse…By this time he could hear nothing but the steady firing of guns and the shrill whistles of the Dakotas…Just then, up the bank…came the horse of Bob-tailed Bull…The horse was much frightened and…Red Bear saw that the saddle was all bloody in front. Five or six soldiers were riding through the bushes at his left, having just crossed the river He did not see Little Brave again and he thought the soldiers were all killed. As he rode up to the end of the ridge, he saw many soldiers retreating. Then at their head he saw Reno..."Soldier " Soon we saw survivors of valley fight coming up the ridge. Little Brave’s spotted horse came up with the rest. Red Bear [Good Elk] came straggling up without any shoes, and the boys picked the prickly pear prongs out of his feet. I soon recognized Bobtail Bull’s horse. Strikes Two remarked that Bobtail Bull must have been killed in the fight"Stirkes Two "Red Star, Boy Chief and Strikes Two captured 27 horses and 2 mules. We had made a break for a drove of horses on our way down from Ford A, but the Sioux were too quick and got them away, but the above 29 appeared to break away from the herd and we three got them. in the timber before soldiers got to timber, and we ran the ponies up the bluffs and there we passed Custer going north along the bluffs, and a few of Custer’s soldiers, taking us for Sioux, fired at us and hit Boy Chief’s horse in the jaw. We kept waving our hats to let them know we were Rees. Custer kept going right on and soon got out of our sight."...We took the horses back until we met the pack train coming, and then left them there with holders."
"While we were driving horses up hill from river, some soldiers passed by and fired on us by mistake, and one of the captured horses was killed. We drove the horses up high bank on east side and Stabbed now joined us, making eight in the party..."Little Sioux "Little Sioux was about half way to the line of soldiers…and then he saw Bloody Knife swing in from the timber along which, from the direction of the Dakota camp, he was driving three horses. Bloody Knife was his uncle and he came up to him and said: “Take these horses away back, this is what Custer told us to do.” Little Sioux paid no attention and Bloody Knife turned back without waiting to see what became of the horses. With Little Sioux there were Red Star, Strikes Two, and Boy Chief. As they stood there together looking across the river they saw at the foot of the ridge (about where they were to cross later) three women and two children coming across the flat..."
"We pursued on after squaws and ran upon a big bunch of horses and took after them and let women go. These horses were on east side opposite point of timber. We…kept them on the east side and ran them across the flat and went up through the hills with them. As we were going up hill the soldiers fired on us and wounded Boy Chief’s horse. The Sioux were tight after us and followed up into hills. Among these soldiers was Stabbed [Stab] who took off his hat and waved it to stop the soldiers firing."
Harper, Gordon. The Fights on the Little Horn Companion "On the ridge above me on the highest point I saw a United States flag.” Forked Horn then said to Young Hawk: “My grandson, you have shown yourself the bravest. The flag you have seen up there shows where the pack-train is which we were to meet and we must try now and reach it.” Custer had instructed them what to do, so as not to be mistaken for the Dakotas. So Young Hawk cut a stick and tied his white handkerchief on it. They tried to put Strikes Enemy on a horse; his leg was pierced by a shot and his right hand also. They were able to put him on his own horse and Goose was mounted on the horse of Red Foolish Bear, who himself went on foot. Young Hawk rode ahead with the white flag. They rode down the stream half way the length of the ridge and as they climbed up the slope they saw the Dakotas riding back on the east side of the ridge toward the white camp. Goose took Red Foolish Bear up with him and they rode back the entire length of the ridge and up at the other end into the white camp." Young Hawk remained behind and the Dakotas chased him along the ridge. The soldiers fired over him at the enemy and the Dakotas fired at him. A few rods from the camp his horse was shot down but he scrambled to his feet still carrying his white flag and ran into the camp. The first man he saw was his chief of scouts, Peaked Face (Varnum). The pack-train was there and the survivors from the fight on the Little Big Horn."Not sure if this is the flag waving you mention, but all of this takes place at the Corral. Unless its Reno's/Benteen's Guidon, which means its on Weir HIll. Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 12, 2023 9:04:04 GMT -6
Here is a very good Little Sioux narrative I have not seen in print... contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/p15999coll31/id/39399/rec/215Mentions chasing the the squaws, horses on the flats to the east of the timber, running them up through the hills, getting shot at by soldiers on the hill, Stabbed hat waving, driving horses back, finding Reno's men retreating up and on the ridge after, the pack train arriving, etc. Anyway ties in very well with... "...While he was driving off the horses on the flat he heard the battle going on very plainly at his right and on his left also. Slightly behind him he heard sounds of another battle but not quite so plain. As Little Sioux came up the ridge he met the other scouts that had been left behind and they all went on together. ...From the ridge he saw that the battle was over, dead men and horses lay all the way from where the battle line was to the river, and also on the bank and up to the hill. They rode on and looking back they saw some dismounted soldiers, who had straggled up from the river, fighting the Dakotas back. He saw a dead soldier lying just where he came up over the ridge on the hill."
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Post by shan on Aug 12, 2023 10:57:38 GMT -6
johnson1941
thanks for posting the Little Sioux narrative, its a version I haven't seen before either. Unfortunately, what between my poor eyesight and the almost indeciphable scrawl, I found it almost impossible to read, so thanks for your brief synopsis.
It raises several questions however, fot if, as is generally implied, the scouts were way out ahead of Renos troops, then Indians couldn't have been riding out to engage them in large numbers as several accounts seem to imply, for if they were, then the scounts wouldn't have been able to acomplish as much as they did. From what they say, they may have been half a mile further downriver by the time Renos men dismounted to form a skirmish line. Indeed bloody Knife was said to have been into the timber and come back out with three ponies which he then handed on to another scout before Reno's command came to a halt. Its much harder to say how far those scouts who were further out towards the west managed to penatrate, but I think it unlikely that they got as far as those who were close to the river due to their being so exposed.
So, my first question is this, if as reported, the scouts crossed back over the river and chased and fired at a number of Indian women and children before trying to round up and then turn the small herd that lay under the bluffs, and if, as they say, once they got back to the top of the ridge, they saw that the Reno part of the fight was over, with dead men and horses strewn along the line of retreat, then this indicates that Renos fight in the valley lasted hardly any time at all. Now I realise that it will have taken the scouts some time to coral and then turn those horses around let alone keep control, but they were well mounted and what's more, they knew that they couldn't afford to linger any more than neccasary, in which case they would have been riding as fast as they could in order to get the job done and get to hell out of there.
There are lots of differnt arguments as to how long Reno fought in the valley ranging from 50 mimutes to half an hour, but if what the scouts is saying is true, then it sounds as if it was even shorter than that.
Personally, I think the Arikara Narritive is one of the best books on the battle, after all, those men were there and fought the good fight, although to their shame, the United States Army liked to argue otherwise. That being said, its a hard read, not because, as is so often the case, the interpretor wasn't up to the job: no, I think in this case he was, in fact that's what makes it a hard read, for it was because he was so careful to try and record exactly what they said and get it down in their own words, what we're hearing as we read is how a differnt culture talks about things, a culture that is not so obsessed with the things that we are, things such as time and when did something happen, or how many miles or yards was this witness the things he's talking about. I've read it numerous times now and whilst I continue to enjoy it, I can't honestly say that its left me with a clearer picture, but then why would it, those men were trying to remember something that had happened thirty six years before, thirty six years of being accuused of being a coward.
Sorry, got a bit carried away there, so look, I'll step down from my soap box and ask yet another question. Given that they were way ahead of the troops, and given that they shot and killed a number of women, surely, Custer, who by then was up on the buffs a little way ahead of his men, must have stopped to watch them, no matter how briefly. In which case he would have known that their shooting had alerted the enemy, and so there was time to waste for it was game on. Who then, shot down at the scouts, did they mistake them for hostles, and if so, would Custer have thought the same?
Shan
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 12, 2023 12:15:45 GMT -6
No worries, Shan! Agreed - good stuff in there - but needs thorough reading a few times. Muddling through as HR says! It seems that the scouts pushing horses made a push back up stream with the horses (crossing the bluffs just below the Reno retreat line), got shot at a bit by soldiers (Custer's last?) and then went way back towards/past the lone tepee, then came back. They 1st crossed before Benteen came up, while Custer's stragglers were still there (men with downed horses like Thompson - who Martin also saw on his way back - in coulee and on bluffs). When they came back to the area they saw the retreat. " Drove horse back a ways, then returned to river and found Reno's men on top of ridge. Soldiers were struggling up out of the bottom,some wounded. After a while the pack train arrived, I went back to where the horses were tied." This seems a common theme with the horse pusher scouts. Moving downstream a bit around timber, grabbing horses, a mile+ long running fight, etc. takes time! The timing is the key. After Custer barely passed, before Reno retreated and was fortified. Where this all happened is also key (for me) - Weir Hill -> Reno Corral area. There were also Rees who were left behind initially and met up with these guys. More Little Sioux (Arikara Narrative book you'lll be familiar with)... "They had hardly headed the horses before the Dakotas came across the river from the village where he had seen the tops of the tepees and from there they carried on a running fight up the valley for over a mile with the pursuing Dakotas chasing and firing at them. They reached and crossed the high bluff, at which point was the hardest fighting, and the Dakotas chased them back on the trail seven or eight miles."
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